64 replies to this topic

[AlbinoSlug]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Why would they lock a thread that only seeks to improve community discourse?

That's the reason it's going to be locked.

[The Echo Inside]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I agree with most of these, but I feel that "pugstomping" is an accurate description of the current matchmaking paradigm for team players. Why do you feel that it does not add to discussions?

It tends to be used in incredibly derogatory ways. It also implies a number of things; Such as that Pug players are powerless victims and always are. And that team players are aggressive and their motivations for team play are aggressive and/or desire to hurt Pugs/abuse them. Rather than it simply being a mechanical issue. I.E. A victim versus a bully.

Effectively, if you evoke the image of Curb stomping (which is likely where this comes from), or stomping in general, it's aggressive and indicates aggressive motivations. It encourages a view of both division of the playerbase between two camps, one indicated as strong, the other weak, and the willful use of that power division (with the implied personal gain being C-Bills, etc).

It's why you see the derision of Pug players on one side, "Get on a team or leave." And the derision of non-Pug on the other, "Stop playing with teams, you're ruining the game". Because it forces team players to be defensive, and forces non-team players to see themselves as victimized.

Edited by The Echo Inside, 04 November 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[RG Notch]

It'd be better if people would stop doing those things or acting like them rather then we wouldn't have to use them.

[Shismar]

It is pretty easy, someone using those terms does not have anything to say. You can just ignore their posts.

[Lefty Lucy]

The Echo Inside, on 04 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

It tends to be used in incredibly derogatory ways. It also implies a number of things; Such as that Pug players are powerless victims and always are. And that team players are aggressive and their motivations for team play are aggressive and/or desire to hurt Pugs/abuse them. Rather than it simply being a mechanical issue. I.E. A victim versus a bully.

Effectively, if you evoke the image of Curb stomping (which is likely where this comes from), or stomping in general, it's aggressive and indicates aggressive motivations. It encourages a view of both division of the playerbase between two camps, one indicated as strong, the other weak, and the willful use of that power division (with the implied personal gain being C-Bills, etc).

It's why you see the derision of Pug players on one side, "Get on a team or leave." And the derision of non-Pug on the other, "Stop playing with teams, you're ruining the game". Because it forces team players to be defensive, and forces non-team players to see themselves as victimized.

OK, that's pretty solid reasoning. You can see I already added it to the list.

[Shalune]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 November 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

QQ
crybaby
entitled
whiner
*****
CoD kiddy

edit:

Fanboy
Gold defense league (and variations)
"Learn to play" phrasing
Pugstomper
Elitist
loser

basically any of the ridiculous ad-hominem attacks that are designed to insult the user rather than actually support your own stance. Who has more to add?

I agree with you, but I don't think this post will reach its intended audience.

It's sad, because this great game and community are really entitled to a place where we can geek out and be the fanboys we are deep down inside. I'd love to see this forum evolve info something like Elitist Jerks is for WoW with intelligent people sharing their knowledge so that you can learn to play that much better and give even pugstompers a run for their money. It'd be a great way to welcome TT vets and CoD kiddies alike to MWO.

[Lefty Lucy]

Shalune, on 04 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

I agree with you, but I don't think this post will reach its intended audience.

It's sad, because this great game and community are really entitled to a place where we can geek out and be the fanboys we are deep down inside. I'd love to see this forum evolve info something like Elitist Jerks is for WoW with intelligent people sharing their knowledge so that you can learn to play that much better and give even pugstompers a run for their money. It'd be a great way to welcome TT vets and CoD kiddies alike to MWO.

I see what you did there

[Valaska]

But to be honest, if we start limiting discussion based on terms where in the hell are we going to stop? This will only do harm, and lots of it. So nope! All my nope to this.

[Lefty Lucy]

Valaska, on 04 November 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

But to be honest, if we start limiting discussion based on terms where in the hell are we going to stop? This will only do harm, and lots of it. So nope! All my nope to this.

But when forum-goers simply toss out pithy insults rather than actually discussing, that is actually more harmful to having a forum where discourse is useful.

[Drunky]

Fanboy is a completely legitimate label for a lot of people on this forum. Basically it should be used when someone points out a legitimate flaw or flaws in the game, and then meet heavy resistance from fanboys.

[Lefty Lucy]

RG Notch, on 04 November 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

It'd be better if people would stop doing those things or acting like them rather then we wouldn't have to use them.

Drunky, on 04 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Fanboy is a completely legitimate label for a lot of people on this forum. Basically it should be used when someone points out a legitimate flaw or flaws in the game, and then meet heavy resistance from fanboys.

Here's the core of the problem. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they're being unreasonable.

[Valaska]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 November 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

But when forum-goers simply toss out pithy insults rather than actually discussing, that is actually more harmful to having a forum where discourse is useful.

And where do we stop? This is a competitive game, people are going to get heated and yell at each other thats perfectly fine. Hell they might even, my gosh, swear or insult each other! We shouldn't try to suppress this anymore than free speech.

[Lefty Lucy]

Valaska, on 04 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

And where do we stop? This is a competitive game, people are going to get heated and yell at each other thats perfectly fine. Hell they might even, my gosh, swear or insult each other! We shouldn't try to suppress this anymore than free speech.

It requires personal judgment and self control, but you stop the moment that what you write is written with no purpose other than to insult your opponent.

Edited by Lefty Lucy, 04 November 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Hikyuu]

I'll discuss properly when these are proper discussions, and not rants at the Dev team for issues that are A. already being worked on or B. aren't actually issues but just whining about a game's difficulty. Until then I troll the hell out of them because i can.

like the forum we made discussing how you could successfully pug solo in trial mechs, which was met with QQing, whining, complaining, and complete disregard of fact. which indicates that the minority that are here controlling the forums have an inability to communicate information gathered from their left brain to their right brain, which stores their core beliefs.

TL;DR: you cant discuss with people who aren't looking to learn, but already assume they are right.

Edited by Hikyuu, 04 November 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[The Echo Inside]

@Lefty Lucy.

Thanks =) If it seems odd at all, it might help if I explain that I grew up in South Africa during the Apartheid era, so I'm rather keenly aware of the effects of language on mindsets. They used it to horrific effect there. And even well intentioned/unthinking terms (which is what I consider this one to be) can have subtle, but extensive effects. Even in as benign a situation as gaming. (If you have ever played Eve Online, you can see the effect the term "carebears" has on that community)


@General
Encouraging people to use constructive/non-derogatory terms/language/discussion isn't going to limit discussion or put a muzzle on anyone. Even if used in a positive context, derogatory terms don't lose their negative meaning. This isn't the thought police knocking on your screen. At worst, it's the door-to-door civility salesman.

Edited by The Echo Inside, 04 November 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

The Echo Inside, on 04 November 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Encouraging people to use constructive/non-derogatory terms/language/discussion isn't going to limit discussion or put a muzzle on anyone. Even if used in a positive context, derogatory terms don't lose their negative meaning. This isn't the thought police knocking on your screen. At worst, it's the door-to-door civility salesman.

Precisely. It's not a free speech issue. Even in the US the only free speech protection we have is that the *government* cannot abridge free speech. It's an issue as to whether or not we want these forums to be place where people can have actual discussions about the game, versus a place where people fling metaphorical poo at each other.

[Harmatia]

I won't write any of that, but depending on the tone and content of a post, I'll be brutally honest in a response. Frankly there is a lot of ******** going on over frivolous crap. I'm not saying that "crap" doesn't need fixing, but there is away around almost everything if the player is interested enough. Perhaps the personal attack replies are a result of people's inability to compromise? I don't know. We invite people onto our TS server all the time, but give only one warning to the ******** and moaning should they undertake that kind of activity. Then they are purged. It's not about being elitist, mean or anything else. We play for fun and don't want to listen to people whining about something that can be solved.

[BloodLegacy]

My personal favorite is P2Whiner.

[Pinches gringos]

think we should add to these terms as well: TT toaster, Free2Penis, Assult-hole, Missile Mennonite, ***-ser boat, PPC-Puss, Gauss Gringo, Srm-****, Pulse-Puss, Also hunchbacks now find the term hunchback derogatory, please now refer to that mech as a scoliosis swayback.

[Shalune]

Pinches gringos, on 04 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Also hunchbacks now find the term hunchback derogatory, please now refer to that mech as a scoliosis swayback.

XD