27 replies to this topic

[Vermaxx]

I just realized that, while a 50 ton mech can 'boat' three cannons, a 100 ton assault mech who comes stock with the same gun cannot.

This arbitrary hardpoint system is a little...arbitrary.

[ScientificMethod]

It's designed to give each mech a unique feel. Would you rather people only need to buy one chassis that's fully modifiable?

[Vermaxx]

Explain the unique feel of an AC20 counting as 2 hardpoints in this mech, and three in that. I support preserving the flavor of a mech's original build AND making omnimechs actually mean something, but it is yet another way that assault mechs get a shaft and not a bone.

[Raalic]

Well from a practical standpoint, you could boat 3 gauss or AC/20 into an Atlas without breaking a sweat, and you just can't on a hunch. The crying over gassapults would pale in comparison.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Awe, Vermaxx you're normally so well spoken!

It's just the hardpoint system mate, that's what makes some 'mechs either more general or more specialized, not much of an answer, as you usually provide, but it makes sense to me.

Soon there will be many 'mechs to choose from, including OmniMechs.. sure that's nothing you don't know but hang in there! It'd be dissapointing to me if the community lost such an intelligent being!

[ExavierMacbeth]

Think of the hardpoints as power/control runs for weapon systems. The AC/20 only takes up a single hardpoint but that variant can, if the pilot chooses, be retrofited with up to 3 different ballistic weapons in that spot if you choose to use something other than the AC/20.

Think of it is a way to allow some customizability while still preserving the non-omni mech nature of the varient system.

[Khobai]

Not sure. I do agree the Atlas-D should have three ballistic hardpoints in its right torso. It would add some more variation to Atlas builds and it wouldnt really be overpowered since you cant fit two gauss in a side torso.

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Well from a practical standpoint, you could boat 3 gauss or AC/20 into an Atlas without breaking a sweat, and you just can't on a hunch. The crying over gassapults would pale in comparison.

No you couldnt. Gauss are 7 crit slots. Theres only 12 crit slots in the Atlas' side torso. You could still only use one Gauss even if it had three ballistic slots in its side torso. The only ballistic weapons you could have three of would be machine guns, AC2s, and AC5s. So it wouldn't be unbalanced or anything.

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[Raalic]

Oh, I get it now. All in the same place, just like the 4G. Yeah, that definitely makes little sense.

[Noth]

OMG a medium built around a single weapons system has something an Atlas doesn't. The world is going to end

[Khobai]

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OMG a medium built around a single weapons system has something an Atlas doesn't. The world is going to end

Youre missing the point. The point is to get people to use weapons besides gauss rifles all the damn time. By giving the Atlas three ballistic slots you create more options that dont involve gauss rifles. It would only be beneficial for the game.

[Vermaxx]

They need to come up with a blanket formula, and apply it to all equipment. They generally did, except they hit some models with the banhammer.

BIIIG guns get 3 hardpoints.
big (notice the difference?) get two hardpoints.
small and medium weapons are one hardpoint.

The system is basically a copy from MW4, except there the original slots were exactly the size of the original equipment. Meaning an AC20 would be 10 hardpoints (hello a-billion-fkkkn-AC2), or ten machine guns (no, just...no). The system isn't bad, except they use it to punish certain mechs.

I'm not a fan of the fact that PGI wants every mech to be competitive in nearly any role. Some mechs should just be better and things, like melting faces. Everyone needs the same rules.

[Tresch]

The Atlas and the Awesome are not going to be the only assault mechs in the game. There will probably be, at some point, an assault with 3 ballistic hardpoints.

[Noth]

Khobai, on 06 November 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Youre missing the point. The point is to get people to use weapons besides gauss rifles all the damn time. By giving the Atlas three ballistic slots you create more options that dont involve gauss rifles. It would only be beneficial for the game.

They still just use giass rifles all the time. Changing the harpoints won't change that. GRs are simply too good to pass up.

Vermaxx, on 06 November 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

They need to come up with a blanket formula, and apply it to all equipment. They generally did, except they hit some models with the banhammer.

BIIIG guns get 3 hardpoints.
big (notice the difference?) get two hardpoints.
small and medium weapons are one hardpoint.

The system is basically a copy from MW4, except there the original slots were exactly the size of the original equipment. Meaning an AC20 would be 10 hardpoints (hello a-billion-fkkkn-AC2), or ten machine guns (no, just...no). The system isn't bad, except they use it to punish certain mechs.

I'm not a fan of the fact that PGI wants every mech to be competitive in nearly any role. Some mechs should just be better and things, like melting faces. Everyone needs the same rules.

They have a formula and it is not based on what is normally found on the variant. It's based on what the mech is designed to do, how many different hardpoints it has and how many locations of said hardpoints. An Atlas is a multiweapons using system. It's natural for it to have less hardpoints of a single type than a mech with a focus on a single weapons system.

If they added an assault that focused on ballistics that mech would naturally have more ballistics hardpoints. It's really not hard to understand.

Edited by Noth, 06 November 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[ScientificMethod]

Vermaxx, on 06 November 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

They need to come up with a blanket formula, and apply it to all equipment. They generally did, except they hit some models with the banhammer.

BIIIG guns get 3 hardpoints.
big (notice the difference?) get two hardpoints.
small and medium weapons are one hardpoint.

The system is basically a copy from MW4, except there the original slots were exactly the size of the original equipment. Meaning an AC20 would be 10 hardpoints (hello a-billion-fkkkn-AC2), or ten machine guns (no, just...no). The system isn't bad, except they use it to punish certain mechs.

I'm not a fan of the fact that PGI wants every mech to be competitive in nearly any role. Some mechs should just be better and things, like melting faces. Everyone needs the same rules.

The problem with that is a blanket formula will allows gaps for players to powergame and ruin the game balance, aka 10 machine guns as you said. I don't see how anything is wrong with the current system.

I think our original poster be a lot happier once more ballistic based mechs come out. The atlas never was meant to be a ballistic's boat, it is supposed to have a enough to everything to hurt at any range. The current hardpoint loadout encourages that.

[Vermaxx]

I know that. I'm saying it isn't fair. Mechs with an AC20 should get 3 hardpoints. Considering the absolutely obnoxious rate of fire of an AC2, boating three of them in an assault mech weighs only 4 tons more than an AC20 and 3 tons more than a gauss. The benefits are incredible: better range, faster projectile speed, and better ammo/ton. And they all hit the same place because they all fire from the same location.

[Khobai]

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The Atlas and the Awesome are not going to be the only assault mechs in the game. There will probably be, at some point, an assault with 3 ballistic hardpoints

Again youre missing the point. By only giving the Atlas 2 ballistic hardpoints, youre basically telling everyone to use Gauss or dual UAC/5 (unpopular now due to excessive jamming) because those are the best combinations of weapons for 2 ballistic hardpoints.

But if you give the Atlas 3 ballistic hardpoints, suddenly theres way more options, like triple AC/2. So it helps move us away from the idea of having compulsory Gauss rifles in in every Atlas. This game definitely needs less Gauss rifles.

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They still just use giass rifles all the time. Changing the harpoints won't change that. GRs are simply too good to pass up.

If thats true then theres absolutely no harm in giving the Atlas a third ballistic slot. Because either people are going to keep using Gauss and nothing will change or some players will stop using Gauss in favor of other ballistic weapons and the game will benefit from more diverse builds.

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Noth]

Vermaxx, on 06 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

I know that. I'm saying it isn't fair. Mechs with an AC20 should get 3 hardpoints. Considering the absolutely obnoxious rate of fire of an AC2, boating three of them in an assault mech weighs only 4 tons more than an AC20 and 3 tons more than a gauss. The benefits are incredible: better range, faster projectile speed, and better ammo/ton. And they all hit the same place because they all fire from the same location.

Actually it is fair. A multiweapons system having the same number of ballistic hardpoint as a ballistic design weapons system is not fair. Just because you don't like it does not make it unfair.

Khobai, on 06 November 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Again youre missing the point. By only giving the Atlas 2 ballistic hardpoints, youre basically telling everyone to use Gauss or dual UAC/5 (unpopular now due to excessive jamming) because those are the best combinations of weapons for 2 ballistic hardpoints.

But if you give the Atlas 3 ballistic hardpoints, suddenly theres way more options, like triple AC/2. So it helps move us away from the idea of having compulsory Gauss rifles in in every Atlas. This game definitely needs less Gauss rifles.



If thats true then theres absolutely no harm in giving the Atlas a third ballistic slot.

OR you could instead fix the GR so it's less appealing. That would actually fix the problem not just cover it up.

Even now plenty of Atlas run with 2 AC/2 currently. They do not in any way need 3 ballistic hardpoints.

This topic issue comes from "But I want to fire 3 instead of 2" It does not come from a balance view. It comes from pure selfishness.

Edited by Noth, 06 November 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[Paradoxum]

ScientificMethod, on 06 November 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

It's designed to give each mech a unique feel. Would you rather people only need to buy one chassis that's fully modifiable?

uhm, yes, actually I would prefer this. I thought this was how the game was actually going to work.

[ScientificMethod]

Vermaxx, on 06 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

I know that. I'm saying it isn't fair. Mechs with an AC20 should get 3 hardpoints. Considering the absolutely obnoxious rate of fire of an AC2, boating three of them in an assault mech weighs only 4 tons more than an AC20 and 3 tons more than a gauss. The benefits are incredible: better range, faster projectile speed, and better ammo/ton. And they all hit the same place because they all fire from the same location.

Going from a canon standpoint you're confusing weapon size and the computers required to target said weapon. The weapon's hardpoints in mechs are supposedly combat targeting computers assigned to a specific weapon. Yes the atlas has a lot of space for big guns, but it's computers are spread across a variety of systems.


In game balancing wise, the atlas is supposed to have a bit of everything. I understand that allowing extra ballistics hardpoints won't directly do much to affect the mech's design (if only ac2's are used). However, ac2's create a lot of heat and require a lot of ammo. That tonnage will certainly increase the mech's focus on ballistics, which it isn't meant to be. Just wait for the JagerMech or a mech designed for ballistics to come out.

[JewBoy]

Good luck doing anything usefull with all 3 of those hardpoints, unless you want to run 3 machine guns. Even with 3x AC2s you wont be able to load enough ammo or dump the heat quick enough to be useful.