31 replies to this topic

[Esarai]

So I'd like to point out a rather alarming trend I've been seeing in new players I introduce to MWO: They don't stick around. Almost universally I have seen the people I introduce to the game have positive reactions and then see the prices of personal mechs, and go 'nope, that's too much, I'm out.'

Basically, my current observations of newbies who have no experience with the BT universe suggest they are behaving exactly the way people in the 'New Player Grind is Too Intense' camp have predicted, and it leads me to conclude that MWO in its current incarnation is structured to cater to the market of die-hard BT fans, and in so doing has narrowed its potential customer base by creating the Trial Mech system that effectively prevents new players from enjoying the full game without either selling part of their soul to it or dropping a lump of cash to get through the grind.

I've loved MW ever since a childhood friend introduced me to MW3. It was on an antique computer and we could only play at like 10 fps, but that was still some of the most fun I've ever had on a computer, and MWO looks like it could deliver that again. I think MWO is great--its mechanics are everything we've ever wanted from a BT game, but it's selling itself to the BT fans, and not the general public, and I don't think this is a very viable strategy. I want to see MWO do the best it possibly can; works of love like this need to be rewarded.

People have been saying for a long time 'the newplayers need something to feel connected to the game,' and current observations show this could not be more true. I believe that any of the previous suggestions--personal starter mechs, starting capital of 3-4 Mcb, trial mechs that change every day--will drastically improve the attraction of this game to players who have never before seen or heard of BattleTech.

[Khrull]

Okay, here's a proposition. Don't let your friends try out the game. Ask them if they want to buy mechwarrior online for $60. Your friends will probably say no. So how is Mechwarrior's current business model worse than the traditional business model? At least this way, people who enjoy the game can try it out first and if they are interested in getting a step up, they can make a purchase of $10 and be rocking. Bottom line is your friends are not fans of the game.

That being said, the matchmaking needs to stop matching up PUGS against premades. There should be three types of matchmaking.

#1. Trial mechs vs trial mechs
#2. Pugs vs pugs
#3 Premades vs premades

[chaas]

The devs had a three-tier program they were going to implement regarding pre-arranged groups, but I haven't heard anything about that in weeks.

[Phantom Lamb]

Check the Announcements forum - they just said the first PUG / Premie fix is coming in tomorrow, 11/6. I think this will do wonders.

[BoomDog]

As a new player, I can say that the absolute worst problem for keeping new players is the MM.

If I hadn't have been a veteran of every mech game ever made, I would've thought that I just really sucked at this game and quit. Little did I realize that not only was I fighting vastly superior mechs, but highly organized premade teams filled with veteran players.

I realize that a band-aid fix is on the way, but even a 4 man team is going to mop the floor with new players. The only way this will work is if both teams get a premade. Then the new players might actually learn something from watching what their veteran teammates are doing.

[Esarai]

Khrull, on 05 November 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Okay, here's a proposition. Don't let your friends try out the game. Ask them if they want to buy mechwarrior online for $60. Your friends will probably say no. So how is Mechwarrior's current business model worse than the traditional business model? At least this way, people who enjoy the game can try it out first and if they are interested in getting a step up, they can make a purchase of $10 and be rocking. Bottom line is your friends are not fans of the game.

That being said, the matchmaking needs to stop matching up PUGS against premades. There should be three types of matchmaking.

#1. Trial mechs vs trial mechs
#2. Pugs vs pugs
#3 Premades vs premades

That's the issue though--they don't actually get to 'try it out.' They get a watered down version that doesn't adequately reflect the final product and doesn't give them a decent reason to continue or pay.

And yes, that is the bottom line and that's the main thing that's wrong--the game isn't built in a way that readily generates new fans. It sells to the BT fanbase who already have an idea what's going to go down. New players have no way of knowing and no reason to want to grind or pay.

Word to the matchmaking, hopefully tomorrow's patch will bring it closer to salvation. Though it is a rare gem to see the pug side of a PUG vs. Premade match get its s**t together and roflstomp the premade.

[Wescott]

Esarai, on 05 November 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

So I'd like to point out a rather alarming trend I've been seeing in new players I introduce to MWO: They don't stick around. Almost universally I have seen the people I introduce to the game have positive reactions and then see the prices of personal mechs, and go 'nope, that's too much, I'm out.'

Basically, my current observations of newbies who have no experience with the BT universe suggest they are behaving exactly the way people in the 'New Player Grind is Too Intense' camp have predicted, and it leads me to conclude that MWO in its current incarnation is structured to cater to the market of die-hard BT fans, and in so doing has narrowed its potential customer base by creating the Trial Mech system that effectively prevents new players from enjoying the full game without either selling part of their soul to it or dropping a lump of cash to get through the grind.

I've loved MW ever since a childhood friend introduced me to MW3. It was on an antique computer and we could only play at like 10 fps, but that was still some of the most fun I've ever had on a computer, and MWO looks like it could deliver that again. I think MWO is great--its mechanics are everything we've ever wanted from a BT game, but it's selling itself to the BT fans, and not the general public, and I don't think this is a very viable strategy. I want to see MWO do the best it possibly can; works of love like this need to be rewarded.

People have been saying for a long time 'the newplayers need something to feel connected to the game,' and current observations show this could not be more true. I believe that any of the previous suggestions--personal starter mechs, starting capital of 3-4 Mcb, trial mechs that change every day--will drastically improve the attraction of this game to players who have never before seen or heard of BattleTech.

What about those good souls and there are many out there who have worked the grind as you put it. and made it over the hump, got themselves their first mech, and feel GOOD about it, why because they value it, it is theirs and they worked dammed hard to get it. their effort has paid off, if you degrade the effort in acquiring something, it becomes valueless/trivial.
I may be a Founder but I can still respect anothers hard effort in achieving something and that they will value the more for their efforts.


Also "an Alarming Trend" suggests you have access to a huge array of statistics from which to base your comment, if so, please, post them so the statisticians amongst us can appraise them; to view this "Trend" alowing a consensus to be arrived at. Then perhaps we can deal more effectively with the issue.

Edited by Wescott, 05 November 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[Wescott]

Esarai, on 05 November 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

That's the issue though--they don't actually get to 'try it out.' They get a watered down version that doesn't adequately reflect the final product and doesn't give them a decent reason to continue or pay.

And yes, that is the bottom line and that's the main thing that's wrong--the game isn't built in a way that readily generates new fans. It sells to the BT fanbase who already have an idea what's going to go down. New players have no way of knowing and no reason to want to grind or pay.

Word to the matchmaking, hopefully tomorrow's patch will bring it closer to salvation. Though it is a rare gem to see the pug side of a PUG vs. Premade match get its s**t together and roflstomp the premade.

Then perhaps the way forward and to progress should be made clearer and providing maps on which new players can become acclimatised/indentured to the game and after a time of their own choosing opt to access the harsher reality of the game.

Edited by Wescott, 05 November 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[armitage]

chaas, on 05 November 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

The devs had a three-tier program they were going to implement regarding pre-arranged groups, but I haven't heard anything about that in weeks.

That still doesn't address the problems new players face. Even with the 4 person group you'll still end up with one team that has a group and another that doesn't, although less frequently. Then you will have PuG games where one side has more trial mechs than the other and it only takes 1 better than average player with a highly efficient loadout to roll over a group of new players in trial mechs.

Then you have the limited selection of trial mechs. You can't even play with all the weapons with what they give you. The current selection give no access to gauss rifles, AC2/10/20, streak srms, er/ppc's. You don't get to taste the enjoyment of modifying a mech for quite some time, even longer if you hold out for anything other than a trollmando. If they want to stick with the "trial mech" system they need to double the mechs available OR change them on a much more frequent rate like weekly or even twice a week. Maybe even give them a chance to give limited modification, lock out engine changes and chassis upgrades (endo, ff, dbhs) , to a trial mech at the expense of income. At least they would have the option of being more useful with the trade off of making the grind even lonnngggeerrr.

And really this problem should have been a priority several months ago, not addressing it has caused a significant loss in potential income.

[JediMastaDJ]

The final implementation of matchmaking will involve player skill, mech cost, and mech tonnage, as well as pre-made teams. You'll only play 8 man premades vs other 8 man premades, and 4 man premades will still be matched up with pugs, but it will take into account player skill, mech cost and mech tonnage.

This should eventually allow newbs to fight newbs and as they increase in skill level, be matched up with better players.

Once this system is implemented, you'll see a dramatic increase in retention rate of new players. Hopefully, too many of them won't be turned off before this occurs.

I'd also like to see a global XP gain while players are playing in mechs, as well as a full C-bill gain for trial mechs. There's nothing to indicate that full C-Bill gain would be OP for anyone. It would allow for a slightly faster gain, which I think is important in order to retain as much as the new players as possible.

[K Storm]

I have two suggestions that may increase interest in new players (also new to the BT universe).

- Give a mech that can actually be modified right away (Commando?). That's part of the fun. New players offering up no money (because they are unsure) are prevented from trying out that very fun part of the game without being forced to grind. I remember hating the game initially because I couldn't modify my trial mechs at all, but I KNEW I would eventually be able to. My motivation to grind was based partly on my past Mechwarrior game experiences. Once I got some cash and obtained a better feel for the game, I opted into the founder's program. New players may not have that same motivation.

- Match teams based on averaging the team's win/loss kills/killed statistics. You can have a couple of veteran players and a bunch of nOObs on BOTH sides because the stats average out.

[Noganite]

Khrull, on 05 November 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Okay, here's a proposition. Don't let your friends try out the game. Ask them if they want to buy mechwarrior online for $60. Your friends will probably say no. So how is Mechwarrior's current business model worse than the traditional business model? At least this way, people who enjoy the game can try it out first and if they are interested in getting a step up, they can make a purchase of $10 and be rocking. Bottom line is your friends are not fans of the game.

That being said, the matchmaking needs to stop matching up PUGS against premades. There should be three types of matchmaking.

#1. Trial mechs vs trial mechs
#2. Pugs vs pugs
#3 Premades vs premades

^ Here is an example of a BT fanboy that has no clue what a new player feels about the game.

Esarai, on 05 November 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

That's the issue though--they don't actually get to 'try it out.' They get a watered down version that doesn't adequately reflect the final product and doesn't give them a decent reason to continue or pay.

And yes, that is the bottom line and that's the main thing that's wrong--the game isn't built in a way that readily generates new fans. It sells to the BT fanbase who already have an idea what's going to go down. New players have no way of knowing and no reason to want to grind or pay.

Word to the matchmaking, hopefully tomorrow's patch will bring it closer to salvation. Though it is a rare gem to see the pug side of a PUG vs. Premade match get its s**t together and roflstomp the premade.

Matchmaking is only 1 problem, but it still doesn't make the experience any worse or better for the new player who has no idea about what mechwarrior is.

Wescott, on 05 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

What about those good souls and there are many out there who have worked the grind as you put it. and made it over the hump, got themselves their first mech, and feel GOOD about it, why because they value it, it is theirs and they worked dammed hard to get it. their effort has paid off, if you degrade the effort in acquiring something, it becomes valueless/trivial.
I may be a Founder but I can still respect anothers hard effort in achieving something and that they will value the more for their efforts.


Also "an Alarming Trend" suggests you have access to a huge array of statistics from which to base your comment, if so, please, post them so the statisticians amongst us can appraise them; to view this "Trend" alowing a consensus to be arrived at. Then perhaps we can deal more effectively with the issue.

^ Trolling more fanboy junk. The proof is in any of the mirriad of forum posts. If you are too slow to look it up or too blind to see it, then you are a true fanboy tro

Wescott, on 05 November 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Then perhaps the way forward and to progress should be made clearer and providing maps on which new players can become acclimatised/indentured to the game and after a time of their own choosing opt to access the harsher reality of the game.

Now THAT is a good idea!

[gregsolidus]

Khrull, on 05 November 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

At least this way, people who enjoy the game can try it out first and if they are interested in getting a step up, they can make a purchase of $10 and be rocking. Bottom line is your friends are not fans of the game.

I guess free to play and free to enjoy are two different things.

[Exyos]

Hello! I saw this topic and think its a crucial topic. First time on the forums in a while so this might have been posted already:

Perhaps implement a referral system? Players refer a friend to join MWO, players get some form of credit when their friends join and as their friends progress (with credit focused on team building items like shared mechbay with friends/teammembers and item trading privileges). Said referred friends automatically get a medium mech to start out with that is better than trial and is customizable, but is worth 0 C-bills when sold (the new trebuchet seems to fit well into this model, as a medium mech with fire support capabilities. The mech should have a balance of hardpoints so that new players can experiment with which weapon types to find one they like)

Idea being:
- Players already in the game (especially players who have started a group) have a vested interest in sharing MWO with the public as well as their friends (perhaps using youtube casts of their matches with a referral link). The items they gain will allow them to better help their friends and teammates progress through the initial grind.
- New referred players have a drastically reduced grind to get a personalized mech, as they already have a customizable chassis. Initial grind for them will then be focused on exploring with weapons and loadouts, so they can better plan their next big investment (i.e. next mech). Of course, they still have access to the trial mechs
- New players that have not been referred can search for referral codes. Said search will also encourage them to look for a group that they might be particularly interested in joining (since they get shared privileges with their referrers <sp?>)

Overall, having a system in the game that offers
- team benefits that are obtained by fostering a desirable team atmosphere and creative advertisement, but which do not give gamebreaking advantages(no super-mechs, super-weapons, etc.). Kind of like guild advantages, but MWO-style
- Incentive for new players to seek a team early on that would be appealing to them, as well as to play the game after they've been referred (since they get a customizable mech to call their own), When they've played the game long enough to get another mech, selling the "training wheel" mech will not get them any further advantages (since the mech will net 0 c-bills).

Sorry for the long post. Happy hunting

[h00n]

Here's why it's unfriendly to new players.

1. It's expensive.

Using Planetside 2 as an example: an expensive weapon is 480 certs, which is speculated to be 480 station cash. At the speculated exchange rate, that's $4.80 USD for a powerful weapon that could be bought by just playing the game normal.

In MWO, just playing the game like a normal person will yield you a million c-bills in about 2-3 hours....which isn't enough to buy a mech still. So a player decides to buy a mech cash, oh wait, some mechs are 20-30 dollars a piece at the current exchange rate.

A MW or BT veteran (me) is going to throw the cash at it just because I'm a frothing fanatic, but I can't convince any of my friends who aren't into MW to play with me because they feel MWO is too expensive for a microtransaction game.

2. Matchmaking

800lb gorilla in the room. I've seen it, I've been on the wrong end of it. I never complain about it, but...FOR A PLAYER NEW TO THE GAME THEY WILL SIMPLY UP AND QUIT AFTER 2-3 STOMPS. This is regardless of whether the fact that the mech is owned or trials. Worse if the mech is owned because now LOL REPAIR BILL. It's discouraging, even to people who pay real money for mechs. I'm not discouraged by it because I know I am but 1 pilot and trying to rally the scrubs is like herding cats without integrated voip.

3. Heat.

It has been proven that heatsinks provide diminishing returns. This is detrimental to trials mechs, which is detrimental to the gameplay experience of a new player. I understand that PGI wanted to cut down on laser boats, but this was a horrible way of doing it because it doesn't work. People still boat lasers, just less of them. Not only that, now you have people who boat heatsinks (me) so that they can maintain sustained fire. Additional heatsinks being less effective than the ones before them is straight up stupid and only hurts free players and new paying players that want to roll a more varied loadout. I can't tell you how many Atlai and Awesomes I've taken on at the same time because they could not maintain a fire rate while I could. It's absurd, and it only costs new players more money (provided that they are paying players) and makes trials mechs players feel dismayed and hopeless.



You can't sell to customers what is not an enjoyable product. A new player is not going to enjoy the product, and will simply leave. Your demonstration (the trials mechs) is hampered by a heavy handed balance that ONLY hurts stock and trials machines (i.e. new players). You aren't qualifying your customers properly by allowing them to really find what works for them and what doesn't (shoehorning them into whatever mechs you feel like and trying to get them to be paying customers by ******** on them).

I've played other F2P games where I literally just ran around with the default kits shooting people in the face and winning and didn't pay into the game simply because it was obviously not a quality title. MWO is a quality title, but it essentially takes a giant dump on you for not paying. That's not a good way to convince shoppers to become buyers.

Edited by h00n, 05 November 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[wuselfuzz]

BoomDog, on 05 November 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Little did I realize that not only was I fighting vastly superior mechs, but highly organized premade teams filled with veteran players.

"premade teams filled with veteran players" = bunch of random guys on teamspeak

"highly organized" = calling out a basic strategy at the beginning of the match, like "brawlers go D4, scout checks the tunnel" and calling out targets, like "focus fire on streak cat Bravo"

That's all there is to those "pugrolling premade groups". I wouldn't call myself veteran, and yesterday we even had a newbie player in our group, running a "vastly superior" trial Raven, still saving for their own mech. We won like 90% of all matches, even when someone from our group crashed out.

Here's my suggestion: ******* Betty will be in soon. Make her actually tell other group mates if someone took command on the map and say stuff like "Defend D4" or "Scout E-Line". Make the command map working similar to what guys on TS are talking. And let the commander mark targets to attack.

I guess when those orders the commander is issuing have voice-overs, players might actually follow them, instead of ignoring a line of text blinking up for just a few seconds in your peripheral vision.

[Tyrfin]

Heh. You can pugroll with TWO people who coordinate a little bit. My buddy and I usually roll just the two of us, and we don't even bother using TS, just straight text chat. Tiny bit of coordination makes all the difference.

[Ewigan]

armitage, on 05 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

You don't get to taste the enjoyment of modifying a mech for quite some time, even longer if you hold out for anything other than a trollmando.

I love the "trollmando". My next Commando, or the one after that, will get this name

[Fugu]

What ever happened to the idea of giving every player a set amount of C-Bills at the start to simply buy a 'Mech? I found that idea way better than trialmechs.
With trialmechs you're also missing out on the mechlab which is a huge part of the game.
Being able to afford at least one 'Mech right from the start would make beginning a lot more compelling. At least that's what I think.

[Elizander]

BoomDog, on 05 November 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

As a new player, I can say that the absolute worst problem for keeping new players is the MM.

If I hadn't have been a veteran of every mech game ever made, I would've thought that I just really sucked at this game and quit. Little did I realize that not only was I fighting vastly superior mechs, but highly organized premade teams filled with veteran players.

I realize that a band-aid fix is on the way, but even a 4 man team is going to mop the floor with new players. The only way this will work is if both teams get a premade. Then the new players might actually learn something from watching what their veteran teammates are doing.

This is actually what I am assuming will happen. There is no point if 8 pugs are put against 2 premade lances.

Matchmaker Process (as I assume how it would work):

1) Find 2 premade lances, put one on each team.
2) Find 8 pugs, put 4 on each team.
3) Fight.