150 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Kell Draygo, on 05 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

These numbers are completely false. They may have been true a few weeks ago in Closed Beta but when the game went Open Beta, the numbers crumbled pretty badly as there are a lot more premades stomping. Also, premades play a lot more game in a day than casual puggers.

lol you just called another player a liar. You have no idea what their numbers are. you're just looking to start flaming or trolling if that's what your responses are going to devolve into

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Alexandrix, on 05 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

I'm not saying you should.I don't care what you and you corp do.I just don't want anything to do with it.2 q's should exist,1 for solo launch,and 1 for group.That way you can play with your corp to your hearts content,but you'll be playing against other groups...not roflstomping pubbies and newbs in trial mechs.

At some point i imagine PGI will pull it's collective head out of it's rear and make this happen,but who knows when that will be.Until then,all you and your corp are doing is abusing a broken,nearly non existent matchmaker,and pushing new players away from the game.

You're not getting the point.

PGI is making these huge, sweeping changes to appease the Lone wolf crowd, in a game that is supposed to be focused around teamwork.

They're breaking up teams [if only for a short time] in a way that is not conducive to the overall experience, because those of you who want to "Launch solo all day ere day" complained that you weren't special snowflake enough.

Well now guess what's going to happen, those premades you complained about, will be broken up a bit and spread out more, which means now you have MORE of a chance to run into 4 man premade groups... 4 guys on comms working together will still be too tough for you guys who were complaining.

Mark my words.

This game should work like Chromehounds... you HAVE to join a team to play. Or make your own.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 05 November 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[Lin Shai]

Kell Draygo, on 05 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

These numbers are completely false. They may have been true a few weeks ago in Closed Beta but when the game went Open Beta, the numbers crumbled pretty badly as there are a lot more premades stomping. Also, premades play a lot more game in a day than casual puggers.

Yes yes, I'm lying to you. Just like the devs are.

I see pre-mades maybe one or two games out of ten.

Now, if you're saying that if someone logs in, plays only 2 games, and both are against "pre-mades"? Possible because of the simple random nature of the matchmaker and the sample size you're talking about. But they just as easily could have been matched against 2 PUGs that were better than them, and would lose all the same.

[LogicSol]

Kell Draygo, on 05 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

These numbers are completely false. They may have been true a few weeks ago in Closed Beta but when the game went Open Beta, the numbers crumbled pretty badly as there are a lot more premades stomping. Also, premades play a lot more game in a day than casual puggers.

The only way Pug numbers are 1:1 in W/L is if Premades are also 1:1 W/L. And that is not even close to accurate.

I haven't dropped in a premade since OB, and have a 1:1 win/loss ratio.

I'm also only a mediocre player, and play in a CN9-AL heavily modified for brawling.

[Alexandrix]

Lin Shai, on 05 November 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Why? They are.

Or are the devs lying to you?



Yes, you are. Or you are the unluckiest player in the game re: matchmaker roulette.

Those of us who PUG and play on TS3 carry 1:1 win/loss when PUGing. We don't see the pre-made boogyman around every corner when we lose, because generally we lose because we were grouped with 7 other people who don't type a thing into chat, disconnect, suicide, and rambo off to their deaths. Which, of course, means that when you're actually playing a pre-made you have very little chance of winning period because they don't do these things.

The real problem is the matchmaker putting new players in trial mechs, rambos, and people who simply aren't very good at the game up against people who are experienced and know how to play the game. You know what happens when one of the dreaded pre-mades have the players all randomly pick a trial mech and drop? Same thing; they win. You know what happens when (through a miracle) the matchmaker presents a group of competent players in a PUG to a pre-made? A good match ensues. It's pretty much the only time we lose except when playing against another pre-made. At the very least it isn't a lopsided crushing.

If the devs ever release hard numbers on how often grouped players faced non grouped players and that number is less than 30%,i'll be quite surprised.But,something tells me they won't because they know as well as i do that the real number is higher than that.I have no reason to lie about it,rather you choose to believe it or not is up to you.I know what i've experienced and that's enough for me.I have no vested interest in propagating a lie to keep my company in business.Guess who does.

[Sandpit]

Alexandrix, on 05 November 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

If the devs ever release hard numbers on how often grouped players faced non grouped players and that number is less than 30%,i'll be quite surprised.But,something tells me they won't because they know as well as i do that the real number is higher than that.I have no reason to lie about it,rather you choose to believe it or not is up to you.I know what i've experienced and that's enough for me.I have no vested interest in propagating a lie to keep my company in business.Guess who does.

They did release hard numbers, you're jsut choosing to ignore them lol

[Frosted]

Jade Kitsune, on 05 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Well now guess what's going to happen, those premades you complained about, will be broken up a bit and spread out more, which means now you have MORE of a chance to run into 4 man premade groups... 4 guys on comms working together will still be too tough for you guys who were complaining.

Hahaha poor pubbies

[Lin Shai]

Jade Kitsune, on 05 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

They're breaking up teams [if only for a short time] in a way that is not conducive to the overall experience, because those of you who want to "Launch solo all day ere day" complained that you weren't special snowflake enough.

Well now guess what's going to happen, those premades you complained about, will be broken up a bit and spread out more, which means now you have MORE of a chance to run into 4 man premade groups... 4 guys on comms working together will still be too tough for you guys who were complaining.

Mark my words.

That's been my prediction since the minute they announced the changes.

If PUGs think they're playing against "pre-mades" every game now ... I can't wait for Tues night.

[Valder]

Wildcat, on 05 November 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

I have not Played since the first day or 2 of Open Beta, I dont have fun losing 12-20 games in a row... I am waiting for the Matchmaker Fixes

I dont care that 2 weeks of free premium days go to waste, it is not worth playing MWO right now for me, until fixes are made.... which should have been made in Closed Beta....


I dont care what Paul says, I know a Premade Team when I see one.... the Tactics in play by Premade Teams can easily be identified early in game...

lol, you're gonna have a baaaad time in this game in general.

If you don't get your team to pull together and use tactics, you're gonna have the same win/loss no matter what happens to premades. And when I drop with PUGs, take command, and get them to use tactics... hm, it sure looks a lot like premade tactics from the other side.


Maybe you should pick up some friends and play with them as a group? Would be better than trolling the forums saying things like, "I dont care what Paul says, I know a Premade Team when I see one"... just kinda makes you sound a little daft.

Edited by Valder, 05 November 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[LogicSol]

Remember, while have 4 mans teams will double they amount of teams you face, it also quadruples(at least) the chance that you will play with one on your side.

[Cragger]

Taryys, on 05 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

First, I think it should be pointed out that you are not going against premades as much as people may think they are.

Um ********.

2 out of 3 games today that I have played have been premades. 8 founders vs. me and my non founder casual PuG team. I have no problem that people want to group up as a whole team. But they should be fighting others who choose to do that. People like myself that like to sit down and play one match every hour or so between doing real life things shouldn't be forced to be stat padding for others.

Casuals and teams have equal importance in the longevity and thus profit of MWO and that PGI could not see this, nay REFUSED to see this in three months of beta and being repeatedly drummed into their face in the beta forums during the closed beta have made a critical and long lasting error.

Of all my old friends that use to play MW3 and 4 relgiously with me back when we were younger I am the only one that ever even logs in anymore to make use of the free premium time. The rest did not enjoy being stat padding because we are all older now, have kids, have wifes, and have homes that require our attention throughout the days we get to play and cannot sit down with a premade team and play 5 hours straight.

[SIN Scythe]

stop all your pug sorrows and join a team!

[Sandpit]

Valder, on 05 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Would be better than trolling the forums saying things like, "I dont care what Paul says, I know a Premade Team when I see one"... just kinda makes you sound a little daft.

^^ This
Just remember everyone scared of the premade boogeyman, you have noone to scapegoat after tomorrow!!! I shall do my happy dance and listen to the "new" reasons a team gets steamrolled. I'm sure there will be a new reason that has absolutely NOTHING to do with skill, teamwork, tactics, etc.

[Alexandrix]

Jade Kitsune, on 05 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

You're not getting the point.

PGI is making these huge, sweeping changes to appease the Lone wolf crowd, in a game that is supposed to be focused around teamwork.

They're breaking up teams [if only for a short time] in a way that is not conducive to the overall experience, because those of you who want to "Launch solo all day ere day" complained that you weren't special snowflake enough.

Well now guess what's going to happen, those premades you complained about, will be broken up a bit and spread out more, which means now you have MORE of a chance to run into 4 man premade groups... 4 guys on comms working together will still be too tough for you guys who were complaining.

Mark my words.

This game should work like Chromehounds... you HAVE to join a team to play. Or make your own.

I do get your point.It's not conducive to YOUR over all experience.
Your experience isn't my experience.
Basically you are saying because I don't join a unit and roll 8 deep all day long...i shouldn't even be allowed to play the game? that's asinine.Do you really want that to be the only people that populate the game? you want it to be like chrome hounds? didn't that game shut down? because that's exactly what will happen to MWO pretty quickly if they don't have the option of the "drop in for a few games a night,quicklaunch solo" players.It will basically be a handful of premades jerking each other off together until the servers close down in less than 2 years.

Also,dont confuse me for someone that thinks the 4 person limit is a good idea.4 ppl will steamroll a pug just as easily as 8.The only fix to this is seperate grouped and solo q's.

Edited by Alexandrix, 05 November 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[Wildcat]

Frosted, on 05 November 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Tell me about those premade tactics

These are what I have Witnessed, time and time again... some can be overwhelmed by PUGs, as the Premades have gotten too cocky and or screwed up their tactics somewhere... but for the most part, you will lose anywhere from 7-12, or 12-20 matches in a row at times... and depending on the time of day Facing Premade Teams, I know Because this happened in Closed Beta, and nothing has changed

Some of these Strategies can be overcome, other times its far too late for some to realize what has happened

Strategies and Tactics in use by Premade Teams...

• 5-8 Mechs with LRMs of some sort, 1-2 Scouts Targets... Targets are all concentrated on 1 at a time and killed in a matter of Seconds
  
• 2 groups of 4, East and West... then moving in together to catch the enemy in a crossfire
  
• Zerg Rush... Entire Team moves straight to the Enemy Base in a group, sometimes in 1s or 2s to support each other if they encounter any Resistance
  
• Very little use of Trial Mechs, pretty much all Custom Builds, these builds take advantage of very High DPS for each of their Play Style
  
• Entire Team moves as one, Destroying anything in their Path...
  
• Defend, 6-7 Mechs camp their own base, 1-2 Scouts run out... these scouts drag back anything chasing them and then the Team all concentrate fire on one target at a time, once the Enemy Team is down to about 4 or below Mechs the Defending Team will move out as one and finish anything else off
  
• Team will always have 1-2 Mediums supporting each Assault Mech, with LRM Cover concentrating on the Assault Mechs Targets
  
• You can always tell when the enemy team are using Voice Comms, you can see units being diverted to another area to Support someone else, even if that unit is currently engaged in combat or taking fire, he/she will disengage and move off to support the unit in need of help
  
• The Premade Team will pretty much do anything to take as little loss as possible during the Match, the Premade Depends on PUGs to get the best possible reward as they can with as little loss in reward as possible
  
• if one of the Premade Teammates takes too much Damage, the rest of the Team will defend that Teammate and destroy anything trying to kill it off
  
• Some of these Strategies cannot be done without Voice Comms, you need to Talk and not Type... you need to update your position, Status and Progress in real time

Some I have probably forgot about and will update later if I Remember...

Edited by Wildcat, 05 November 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[Sandpit]

Wildcat, on 05 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

These are what I have Witnessed, time and time again... some can be overwhelmed by PUGs, as the Premades have gotten too cocky and or screwed up their tactics somewhere... but for the most part, you will lose anywhere from 7-12, or 12-20 matches in a row at times... and depending on the time of day Facing Premade Teams, I know Because this happened in Closed Beta, and nothing has changed

Some of these Strategies can be overcome, other times its far too late for some to realize what has happened

Strategies and Tactics in use by Premade Teams...

• 5-8 Mechs with LRMs of some sort, 1-2 Scouts Targets... Targets are all concentrated on 1 at a time and killed in a matter of Seconds
  
• 2 groups of 4, East and West... then moving in together to catch the enemy in a crossfire
  
• Zerg Rush... Entire Team moves straight to the Enemy Base in a group, sometimes in 1s or 2s to support each other if they encounter any Resistance
  
• Very little use of Trial Mechs, pretty much all Custom Builds, these builds take advantage of very High DPS for each of their Play Style
  
• Entire Team moves as one, Destroying anything in their Path...
  
• Defend, 6-7 Mechs camp their own base, 1-2 Scouts run out... these scouts drag back anything chasing them and then the Team all concentrate fire on one target at a time, once the Enemy Team is down to about 4 or below Mechs the Defending Team will move out as one and finish anything else off
  
• Team will always have 1-2 Mediums supporting each Assault Mech, with LRM Cover concentrating on the Assault Mechs Targets
  
• You can always tell when the enemy team are using Voice Comms, you can see units being diverted to another area to Support someone else, even if that unit is currently engaged in combat or taking fire, he/she will disengage and move off to support the unit in need of help
  
• The Premade Team will pretty much do anything to take as little loss as possible during the Match, the Premade Depends on PUGs to get the best possible reward as they can with as little loss in reward as possible
  
• if one of the Premade Teammates takes too much Damage, the rest of the Team will defend that Teammate and destroy anything trying to kill it off
  
• Some of these Strategies cannot be done without Voice Comms, you need to Talk and not Type... you need to update your position, Status and Progress in real time

Some I have probably forgot about and will update later if I Remember...

I've gotten PUGs to do each and every one of those for the most part simply by hitting B, taking command, and giving advice as the team commander. Sorry, that doesn't make the other team a premade, it makes them smart and tactically intelligent.

[Taryys]

Corral your herd of PUG cats to do all of this.
Team work is the solution, not the problem.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Alexandrix, on 05 November 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

I do get your point.It's not conducive to YOUR over all experience.
Your experience isn't my experience.
Basically you are saying because I don't join a unit and roll 8 deep all day long...i shouldn't even be allowed to play the game? that's asinine.Do you really want that to be the only people that populate the game? you want it to be like chrome hounds? didn't that game shut down? because that's exactly what will happen to MWO pretty quickly if they don't have the option of the "drop in for a few games a night,quicklaunch solo" players.It will basically be a handful of premades jerking each other off together until the servers close down in less than 2 years.

Also,dont confuse me for someone that thinks the 4 person limit is a good idea.4 ppl will steamroll a pug just as easily as 8.The only fix to this is seperate grouped and solo q's.

Worked for hmm, 4 years for Chromehounds. That's a hell of a run for a game you had to PAY FOR OUT THE GATE.

Of course, you could que up in 1v1 all the way to 12v12 battles in that... Still.

Yes I personally feel that being FORCED by the company to join a group to experience the full, overall game is a MUST for a game like this, at the very least, it should be forced once Community Warfare makes it's showing. [of course it won't, because you "Lone Wolves" have a place too, PADDING OUT EXISTING UNITS THAT ARE DROPPING MEMBERS SHORT!]

So, here's my recommendation to you, this coming change to matchmaker... for ALL public players, pay attention, if you end up on a team that's got a 4 man premade, you'd better learn REALLY QUICK, to figure out the plan and work with them, because that's going to be the name of the game for those of you who refuse to join a squad here within the next year.

[Valder]

Alexandrix, on 05 November 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

I do get your point.It's not conducive to YOUR over all experience.
Your experience isn't my experience.
Basically you are saying because I don't join a unit and roll 8 deep all day long...i shouldn't even be allowed to play the game? that's asinine.Do you really want that to be the only people that populate the game? you want it to be like chrome hounds? didn't that game shut down? because that's exactly what will happen to MWO pretty quickly if they don't have the option of the "drop in for a few games a night,quicklaunch solo" players.It will basically be a handful of premades jerking each other off together until the servers close down in less than 2 years.

I don't know if you know this, but most people who play premades also play PUG, typically when their friends are offline. Which turns out to be quite a bit for some. For me, it's any time before 8pm PST that I end up PUGing, mostly because it's getting much harder to find skilled groups to premade with on the public servers with all the new players flooding in.

You know what? People that do both haven't been complaining. At all that I've seen. Because when 'evil pramaders' run in PUG matches, they tend to direct people with very simple chat advice that tends to win matches. Because the only difference between winning and losing in this game is a dash of tactics. People that don't fight in any sort of premade, ever, just don't seem to get that. Premades have very little to do with your terrible experience. Lack of tactics does. And the more of us premaders that PUG more than we premade makes random PUGs that much better, which is why you end up crying on here that there's "PREMADES EVERYWHERE OMGGGGGGGGG!"

You ever stop to think that someone is advertising their merc corp for you to join because he's lonely on the other team, because he's not in a group with anyone? The merc corps that have a raging number of members that I've dropped with never seem to advertise for people to join them.

Anyway, tomorrow they nerf teams to 4, and I will be loling as me and a bunch of PUGs keep killing the other team, and me and 3 of my friends in a premade keep killing the other team, and everyone keeps QQing on here that teamwork is OP in a team game.

Edited by Valder, 05 November 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Zeh]

Wildcat, on 05 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

These are what I have Witnessed, time and time again... some can be overwhelmed by PUGs, as the Premades have gotten too cocky and or screwed up their tactics somewhere... but for the most part, you will lose anywhere from 7-12, or 12-20 matches in a row at times... and depending on the time of day Facing Premade Teams, I know Because this happened in Closed Beta, and nothing has changed

Some of these Strategies can be overcome, other times its far too late for some to realize what has happened

Strategies and Tactics in use by Premade Teams...

• 5-8 Mechs with LRMs of some sort, 1-2 Scouts Targets... Targets are all concentrated on 1 at a time and killed in a matter of Seconds
  
• 2 groups of 4, East and West... then moving in together to catch the enemy in a crossfire
  
• Zerg Rush... Entire Team moves straight to the Enemy Base in a group, sometimes in 1s or 2s to support each other if they encounter any Resistance
  
• Very little use of Trial Mechs, pretty much all Custom Builds, these builds take advantage of very High DPS for each of their Play Style
  
• Entire Team moves as one, Destroying anything in their Path...
  
• Defend, 6-7 Mechs camp their own base, 1-2 Scouts run out... these scouts drag back anything chasing them and then the Team all concentrate fire on one target at a time, once the Enemy Team is down to about 4 or below Mechs the Defending Team will move out as one and finish anything else off
  
• Team will always have 1-2 Mediums supporting each Assault Mech, with LRM Cover concentrating on the Assault Mechs Targets
  
• You can always tell when the enemy team are using Voice Comms, you can see units being diverted to another area to Support someone else, even if that unit is currently engaged in combat or taking fire, he/she will disengage and move off to support the unit in need of help
  
• The Premade Team will pretty much do anything to take as little loss as possible during the Match, the Premade Depends on PUGs to get the best possible reward as they can with as little loss in reward as possible
  
• if one of the Premade Teammates takes too much Damage, the rest of the Team will defend that Teammate and destroy anything trying to kill it off
  
• Some of these Strategies cannot be done without Voice Comms, you need to Talk and not Type... you need to update your position, Status and Progress in real time

Some I have probably forgot about and will update later if I Remember...

You just listed about every workable tactic in a broad sense. So anyone who uses any viable tactic is a premade? No wonder PUGs lose. You CANNOT play this game without teamwork.

I would not play this game in a PUG. IMO the design itself says "play with others or lose". As it should. You don't need to join a unit or clan or anything, just find people to group up with and play. Thinking you should be able to play without communicating and working with your team is the problem here. THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE IF YOU WANT TO WIN. And it shouldn't be.

I don't know what the people who seem to be saying "I should be able to jump in a random game, with random people, use no coordination and have a chance" want from the game. How would this be possible? One-shot kills maybe? I really have no clue.