15 replies to this topic

[ice trey]

One thing that seems to be a point of tension in this community right now is the point of the customization system, granted it returns in this game.

The Situation
The Mechwarrior 4 players, who've been around for a decade, now, have become used to the MW4 style of having hardpoints that you would drag-and-drop components into pre-ordained slots.

The Battletech players (as well as Mechwarrior 2 and 3 players) who've been around even longer, have been begging for a return to the Battletech style customization system ever since microsoft simplified it.

While These two players seem to be at each others throats', with team MW4 complaining that the BT customization system is too flexible, and Battletech players complaining that Mechwarrior 4's customization system is too dumbed down, I'd like to suggest that we include something that should have been in the Mechwarrior games ever since MW2 Mercenaries

Customization of 'mechs was never meant to be easy until Omnimechs came around, and even then, that was strictly regarding the weapons loadouts - you couldn't touch any of the hardwired components. I strongly advocate the use of Canon/Stock designs, and would like something included so that while you have freedom to customize your 'mechs, you should be given disincentives to do so.

The Recommendation
Battletech campaign systems have had "Customization rolls" for a long while, in that each time you tried to add a new component to a 'mech, you had to roll to make sure that it didn't break, or if you just barely failed the roll, the component wasn't properly installed, gimping the machine permanently. What was more, it was VERY HARD for most components to be installed unless you had expert technicians in a fully outfitted repair facility, if not a Battlemech factory. What is more, the costs to do anything was so exorbitant that you'd probably have been better off just buying a new 'mech. Of course, the degree of complexity of the refit also affected the difficulty. Swapping those two Medium Lasers for a Medium Pulse, or downgrading the PPC into a Large Laser with a few extra Heat Sinks? Simple Refit. Putting a big engine in your Urbie so that you can keep up with other lights on the field? It requires you gut the whole 'mech - an expensive, difficult, time-consuming process. What is more, any repairs you do in the future will be slower and more expensive, as everything is jury-rigged already, instead of being factory-engineered.

THIS is what I want to see brought to the game - the ability to install what components you want through the use of the Battletech customization system, but with very good reason to stick with the stock configuration. If we stick with this or something similar, it will not only give the game a great use of the customization system (And make canon Refit Kits a very easy-to-make DLC item to buy), but it will also keep the flavor of the Succession Wars and Early Clan Invasion eras of Battletech.

[Wild Hog]

I'm a BT'er who played all of the MW games as well. From the BT'er in me, I'd like to see fixed variants which would include cannon House mechs as well. The MW in me knows how many tactical variables are added with customization. So, like MW, choice would be fantastic, and it would double the number of game types (triple if view choice was added). I would like to add that custom mechs consume way too much time between drops unless variants can be shared with others. Personally, I always created a variant pack so lance members could be easily assigned the mech/variant the Lance Leader wanted.

Wild Hog

[ice trey]

Wild Hog, on 03 November 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

I'm a BT'er who played all of the MW games as well. From the BT'er in me, I'd like to see fixed variants which would include cannon House mechs as well. The MW in me knows how many tactical variables are added with customization. So, like MW, choice would be fantastic, and it would double the number of game types (triple if view choice was added). I would like to add that custom mechs consume way too much time between drops unless variants can be shared with others. Personally, I always created a variant pack so lance members could be easily assigned the mech/variant the Lance Leader wanted.

Wild Hog

I definitely see your point.

I had it in mind that customization isn't something that you could just do before a mission, but rather something that would actually require you to leave your 'mech in a shop somewhere for an extended period of time. Likewise with repairs.

But even without the aspect of time, you have the risk of turning your well-engineered 'mech into something out of Junkyard Wars, as well as the added upkeep costs of maintaining a custom design.

[Mitchpate]

Your analysis isn't really fair. Alot of MW4 players that are still actively playing like the older system even more but in a multiplayer environment it creates for extremely unbalanced gameplay. The Microsoft system, while dumbed down, does create a truer to CBT feel as you can't load 4 guass on a Daishi.

The system you proposed is nice but any balancing system based on money or complexity of repairs will become useless over time as people with seriously unbalanced mechs will be able to attain the money needed to keep those mechs maintained.

[DCM Elektrik]

ice trey, on 03 November 2011 - 05:52 AM, said:

While These two players seem to be at each others throats', with team MW4 complaining that the BT customization system is too flexible, and Battletech players complaining that Mechwarrior 4's customization system is too dumbed down, I'd like to suggest that we include something that should have been in the Mechwarrior games ever since MW2 Mercenaries

Well *this* MW4 player could care less about what customization system is in place-it *is* a game after all and I fully expect to have to adapt to whatever is put in it.


Perhaps I have this 'carefree' attitude because I have 'real' stress in life, not invented or imagined...

Edit: Punctuation.

Edited by dcm elektrik, 03 November 2011 - 08:01 AM.

[Barantor]

I'm a MW4 player too and could care less about customization. Give me guns, lasers or missiles and I will rain down destruction regardless.

[Havoc2]

How about a customization system that requires you to think about your loadout before purchasing?

Say our initial 'Mechs are all book variants that CAN'T be customized, then as you progress and earn enough to buy your own 'Mech, all you are buying is a chassis (for a lower price than an already loaded 'Mech) then you pick your engine (more $$$) and pick your loadout based on what hardpoints can take what weapons (more $$$) and your armour, heat sinks, jump jets if available etc. Then when you have everything you want established you click on a BUILD button and it takes a set amount of time (1 day for light, 2 days for med, 3 days for heavy, 4 days for assault maybe?) for your new pimped out ride to be built in the factory and delivered to your MechBay.

I'm not sure if the game could incorporate it, but timings could be shortened based on what factories your House had available on the planet so if you were ordering a pimped out Commando, and your house had a Commando factory on the planet, it would only take 6 hours to fit the weapons since the 'Mech chassis was already available.

[John Clavell]

There has to be a balance with what you can do with Battlemech load outs. If they allow you the kind of freedom you have to customise your fitting as you can with the Tabletop game or say MW2 there has to be a balancing factor so we don't just see whole groups of people in gausszilla mechs or other stupidly unbalanced designs. Maybe implement BattleValue into the system, setting BV limits for combat drops. I don't mind seeing crazy fits which might be thousands and thousands of BV as long as your overall force suffers. So do you bring one nuts BV pimped Battlemech and a few UrbanMechs, or do you spread your BV out among your whole force, giving you an overall better force.

[Suko]

I am a vet of MW2, the board game, MW3, MW4 and Multiplayer Btech 3025.

As a Btech fan I would love total customization options, but as a designer, I know that this is ridiculous and incredibly difficult to pull off right. Here's why:

Allowing players to switch out anything on any location with another piece of equipment requires that the in-game model reflect this. This is more possible with Omni-mechs, which in theory house most of their weapons in modular 'pods' on the mech. But the reality is that putting 4 PPCs onto a Hunchback isn't trivial when it needs to LOOK like it has those weapons in-game for player's to identify. How will the game know what it should look like? What it the player opted to keep or remove hand actuators? That could be the visual difference between an under-arm canon or a Marauder-style PPC arm. Remember seeing the Timberwolf in MW2 spew a PPC ball from it's missile packs? That's a problem that the designers can avoid by going with a system similar to the on used in MW4.

See what I'm getting at? The original MW2 system makes everything RIDICULOUSLY complicated for the designers if they're trying to make the mech's physical appearance match it's design specs. This is why I suggest the MW4 system. It offers 'hard points' which you can switch out for various weapons. Doing this offers the player customization options, but it also gives constraints so that the designer can know what types of weapons can be placed where.

And let us be realistic. Modifying a machine like this is no simple task. Yes, Btech offers rules for complete overhauls and conversions, but I think that MW2 and MW2: Mercenaries skewed people's expectations for how realistic this is. In reality, taking a functioning, finely-tuned system like a battlemech and replacing it's components with something totally different is not trivial, cheap, or practical. If a Hunchback is calibrated and designed with a mounted Autocannan above it's shoulder, replacing that with a PPC or LRM launcher is going to make it react in a completely different way. It would take months of work just to calibrate the targeting and gyro systems to react appropriately to the change in recoil.

This is why omni-mechs were so 'advanced'. They allowed on-the-fly modularity. Something that in the Inner Sphere was completely unheard of. Retrofitting battlemechs in the inner sphere was supposed to be done out of necessity, and only in rare occasions was it done with the intention of perfecting the ultimate war machine.

Edited by shadowvfx, 03 November 2011 - 09:10 AM.

[Wild Hog]

Speculation running rampant here..............let's keep in mind that at this p[oint we know very little, and reality has a way of coming around and biting you in the 6. We have no clue how logistics will work, whether Houses will have factories that build mechs,or each pilot will purchase their own....etc.

I would personally only support custom mechs if they were available to all, free or paid. Anything else would be an advantage for the paying player. Of course, best case scenario would be for all to pay to play, with all content open (this also has community effects, people who pay for something are more inclined to care for it, in this case building/maintaining the community). Obviously that won't/can't happen. That being said, MPBT:Solaris and MPBT:3025, both had set variants of each chassis, nothing was custom, and both were fantastic games to play. I'd play them now if they were made available and I know many who feel the same.

Wild Hog

[Astaroth]

That's pretty much how I feel about it, too. Customization of a mech can be fun, but in a multiplayer game it can threaten balance and playability. The game will be just as much fun (possibly more so) if customization is limited to the particular variant of a mech you wish to purchase, paint schemes, and unit decals. Besides, the less time you have to spend refitting your mech, the more time you will get to spend on the battlefield.

[Dihm]

I'm all for only allowing canon variants of mechs (you have to purchase each variant as a separate mech), with omni-mechs having something like the MW4 type of customization. Maybe we could pay (c-bills or d-bills) to open up IS mechs to allow a one-time personalized variant creation (not allowing unlimited any time retrofitting).

[TheRulesLawyer]

How about we keep variants for the main persistent part of the game and create a solaris 7 arena for people who want to customize? Maybe both camps can be happy then? People who want to spend oodles of money making the OP flavor of the day mech can do so, but are limited to inflicting their creation only on others who want that experience.

[Dihm]

Ohh, not a bad idea, make the unlimited customization part of the deathmatch stuff. Standard variants for Conquest

[Stahlseele]

Back in my day, we had to rocket-jump to school and home over boiling lava!

[mbt201188]

Simple fix. Allow customization, but nothing crazy. Like you can put a ppc on the head of your commando because its not made for it. Similar weapons should be able to be swapped kinda like MW4 but deeper cuz Id like to change the engine type, armor type and so on.