11 replies to this topic

[Hardplace]

So I was just in a match and this guy was getting beat up 4 on 1. It was toward the end of the match, this guy had spent most of the match explaining how Clanners showing up was gonna make all us regret our reliance on LRMs, GaussCats, and Streaks... I got the feeling he thought people that used these weapons didnt have skill or were not better players then him but rather were using weapons to rob him of victory, with out these tools surely he would crush us all.

Next thing I know he stops fighting the people around him and says just kill me I can not do anything. You could have positioned yourself so that your opponents were in the line of fire, get them to help you kill one of em. You could have used the time to get better at staying alive in these situations, to turn your torso to absorb more damage, every second of every match is a chance for you to get better.

I have won 4 on 1 fights, it is rare and should not happen but it can. That is not my point though, my point is that you will never know what you can do or get any better if you just assume your going to lose because it looks bad, even if your going to lose you are never going to get any better if you just say "GaussKitten is broken" or "Your StreakCat stole my bike". My Cicada hates Streakcats and it is not a fair fight for my mech, that does not excuse me from trying to fight or running to find an Atlas to pick on, cause it is not a fair fight for the Atlas going up against my Cicada.

If you find yourself at any point in the game saying "oh they beat me cause of (Insert anything other then I failed)" You are robing yourself of a chance to get better.

I have a friend who does jiu jitsu, we call this guy the Destroyer, because he destroys things, I watched him training with this little guy who does not destroy things. My friend went full on against the little guy, gave him no quarter and used all of his power/skill to crush the guy. I asked him after the fight why he didnt take it easy on the guy. He said neither him or the other guy would get better that way, sure the guy didnt have a chance but that doesnt mean my friend couldnt use the chance to perfect his discipline/technique, that his opponent couldnt use the opportunity to learn something from the Destroyer.

Every moment is a chance to be better then the moment before, every match contains value and has a lesson to be learned. Do not ruin your game experience by giving up, you will never get better. Further just cause someone says in the forums that Gausskittens will beat you in Situation A and you find yourself in Situation A, does not make it fact. Try to win or at the very least the be better from your loss. Lets unlock the compassion of competitive violence haha this is mech warrior, I want you to get better so I am gonna try my best to kill you, you want me to get better so do your best to kill me, this way we can have fun competitive matches and all enjoy the game. I could care less about XP or Win/Loss or CBills... I just want fun Mech Pew Pew.

[nungunz]

Hardplace, on 05 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I have a friend who does jiu jitsu, we call this guy the Destroyer, because he destroys things, I watched him training with this little guy who does not destroy things. My friend went full on against the little guy, gave him no quarter and used all of his power/skill to crush the guy. I asked him after the fight why he didnt take it easy on the guy. He said neither him or the other guy would get better that way, sure the guy didnt have a chance but that doesnt mean my friend couldnt use the chance to perfect his discipline/technique, that his opponent couldnt use the opportunity to learn something from the Destroyer.-

I appreciate the martial arts analogy. My dojo trains with the exact same mindset. Train like you would put into practice. If I leave an opening or make a mistake, whom ever I'm training with better take advantage of that opening and take the shot. If he doesn't I don't learn from my mistake and he doesn't learn how to capitalize. Now to be fair we only train for defending ourselves and family, it's not a sport like Judo and Jiu Jitsu often are.

The problem is currently there is no way to implement this in the game. And here's why: there is no current post-game lobby or communication.

If I'm training one-on-one free-form and I get decked in the face and planted on the ground (we don't use padding or protective gear at all), my training partner and I will get up and slowly go through the motions over and over again, discuss with each other, and figure out what I did wrong, what my partner did right, and what I need to change. Making one mistake can turn into a half hour to hour discussion with repeated movement and reenacting until we both learn.

That dialogue and reenactment is currently absent from the game so it's impossible to do this. Unless both parties are on teamspeak and then jump to the same channel to discuss how the game went.

No training grounds available either in-game.

I like where your thoughts are going....and I learned this game by getting the crap kicked out of me. But I always ran in groups that helped me out and gave me pointers.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Pessimism begets pessimism...

[Reaver225]

Hardplace, on 05 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

My Cicada hates Streakcats and it is not a fair fight for my mech, that does not excuse me from trying to fight or running to find an Atlas to pick on, cause it is not a fair fight for the Atlas going up against my Cicada.

While I agree with a lot of what you're saying - with my commando I've tangled with multiple enemy mechs and come up on top on rare occasions - you SHOULD run away from Streakcats to beat up Atlases instead, simply because you'd fare off a lot worse vs a Streakcat compared to an Atlas. And by getting beaten up by a StreakCat you're not helping your team as much as you could be (unless the 'cat is getting pounded by LRMs you're guiding in).

Striving to get better is one thing, but going up against highly difficult odds just for the hell of it (for example letting your team get its internal structure get kicked in so you can face the enemy team 4v1) is letting down everyone else on your temporary side. The game is challenging enough as is without playing TAG with a Streakpult as a light. (Or nearly light, in your case)

Besides, going to beat up an Atlas just means the Atlas will learn something important: he shouldn't have lost his escort!

[Hardplace]

I was not trying to communicate to go up against difficult odds for the hell of it rather, if you find yourself in difficult odds dont give up or stop trying. At all times I do everything I can for my team, I strive not to be a Blue Falcon. Some times that means getting half the enemies to follow me around the map in a 4 on 1 situation so my team can have a 7 on 4 situation, If your team takes advantage of it and you can stay alive long enough it is worth it, your team will win and while you may not get the kills or damage you will have helped your team win.

Lots of guides and suggestions on these forums, in martial arts, or anything that is competitive. The most important thing however is to know when to break the rules, lol the first rule to fighting with a sword and a shield is to never move the shield, this is to lay the foundations, the second rule, is to move your shield. Musashi in the Book of Five Rings or whatever said something to the effect of "never do this one move, unless it is the right thing to do, this is difficult to understand." All of us have our own styles, tactics, or whatever, some of it is not going to work for all of us, as a result the only thing we can really do wrong is to stop trying or learning from our mistakes.

Edited by Hardplace, 05 November 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[knight-of-ni]

nungunz, on 05 November 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I appreciate the martial arts analogy. My dojo trains with the exact same mindset. Train like you would put into practice. If I leave an opening or make a mistake, whom ever I'm training with better take advantage of that opening and take the shot. If he doesn't I don't learn from my mistake and he doesn't learn how to capitalize. Now to be fair we only train for defending ourselves and family, it's not a sport like Judo and Jiu Jitsu often are.

The problem is currently there is no way to implement this in the game. And here's why: there is no current post-game lobby or communication.

If I'm training one-on-one free-form and I get decked in the face and planted on the ground (we don't use padding or protective gear at all), my training partner and I will get up and slowly go through the motions over and over again, discuss with each other, and figure out what I did wrong, what my partner did right, and what I need to change. Making one mistake can turn into a half hour to hour discussion with repeated movement and reenacting until we both learn.

That dialogue and reenactment is currently absent from the game so it's impossible to do this. Unless both parties are on teamspeak and then jump to the same channel to discuss how the game went.

No training grounds available either in-game.

I like where your thoughts are going....and I learned this game by getting the crap kicked out of me. But I always ran in groups that helped me out and gave me pointers.

I could not have said it any better.
I think I learn the most when I "loose". That causes me to reflect inward and search for patterns of behaviour I can improve on.

Reaver225, on 05 November 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

While I agree with a lot of what you're saying - with my commando I've tangled with multiple enemy mechs and come up on top on rare occasions - you SHOULD run away from Streakcats to beat up Atlases instead, simply because you'd fare off a lot worse vs a Streakcat compared to an Atlas. And by getting beaten up by a StreakCat you're not helping your team as much as you could be (unless the 'cat is getting pounded by LRMs you're guiding in).

Striving to get better is one thing, but going up against highly difficult odds just for the hell of it (for example letting your team get its internal structure get kicked in so you can face the enemy team 4v1) is letting down everyone else on your temporary side. The game is challenging enough as is without playing TAG with a Streakpult as a light. (Or nearly light, in your case)

Besides, going to beat up an Atlas just means the Atlas will learn something important: he shouldn't have lost his escort!

I don't think that's what he/she meant. At least that's not how I understood it. One should always play smart and maximize the team effort, but if it came down to just you and the streakcat... you fight the streakcat with all your soul. You
never know when it will be the other pilot that makes the first mistake.

[Silra]

You fight how you practise.

However we are not machines and can not keep full power all the time. This includes slower practise routines or simple relaxation of the mind and body. It also does does mean that we should not hold our punches, kicks and take-downs when it's appropriate (why break a jaw when a low-power jab would have the same overall result).
Finally only truly desperate or suicidal attacks overwhelming odds and expects a miracle.

Competition martial arts are one thing, so is competition gaming. If we however look at it from the military point of view, why would I ever charge solo into 4 remaining opponents instead of finding a safe place to power down and wait for the situation to cool down?

Just a point of view from someone who has been granted the possibility of seeing it from both perspectives (competitive gaming, though martial art experience is on Aikido, and military training).

Edited by Silra, 06 November 2012 - 04:29 AM.

[knight-of-ni]

Silra, on 06 November 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

If we however look at it from the military point of view, why would I ever charge solo into 4 remaining opponents instead of finding a safe place to power down and wait for the situation to cool down?

Well, I think the answer to the question is "it depends".
If one has the luxury of time then waiting to engage might very well be a smarter approach, but if those mechs are sitting on your base then I would argue the best thing to do would be to get in there and buy your team some more time.

I don't think that Hardplace meant to imply that one should charge into unfavourable conditions given a better alternative.
I really see this as aimed toward those who would prefer to just dc when they perceive an imminent loss (key word is perceive) and/or complain about unfair game conditions in the forums. Without realizing it, they handicap their learning curve by convincing themselves it has to be the game that is broken rather than what they themselves can improve on.

However, I do not mean to put words in Hardplace's mouth since I am essentially speaking for him. If I am not on the mark then I appreciate your feedback.

[Hersaint]

How much do I learn getting streaked? Ummm save up for an XL engine? Save up for a Gausscat? Save up for a Streakcat? I appreaciate your attempt at learning from your mistakes but that actually only takes three matches. Get LRM spammed cuz you are in the open. Get streaked because you thought that cat was a LRM boat. Get streaked by a commando from behind becuase you are too slow. There ya go, grasshopper.

[_Rorschach_]

I was in that game too. I think I died to concentrated LRM fire. It was pretty obvious we would get wiped, but still it was VERY disappointing to see the guy just give up. It's not even in his best interest. Every single point of damage you do gives you C-Bills and XP. So why the hell would you just stop fighting? There's no gain there.

I've been in several games where we were down half the team or worse, with no hope of winning. But I'd never give up. If I was able to take one down with me it was a good fight. If I could strip one or two of their CT armor before dying it was a good fight. Hell, even if I just managed to take someones armor down to red it was still a good fight.

Sometimes it can get frustrating if you end up in several 8-0s in a row. You can always quit the game at that point. Relax a bit, watch a yt-video, go for a walk, whatever. But don't leave your teammates hanging, especially when the odds are against you.

[Stickjock]

Prosperity Park, on 05 November 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Pessimism begets pessimism...

I like to say I'm Opti-pistic... I'm possitive the worst will happen...

j/k... had a battle recently myself that I didn't think I'd pull a win out (a few of the DHB guys know this from last night...) My out of ammo for my LRM Catapult with 3xML's vs an Awesome and another Catapult WITH Ammo...

Pretty much didn't think I had a chance but, my philosophy is why just quit... you go down swinging and make 'em earn the win... funny, took the Awesome first while getting a few LRMs thrown on me then somehow managed to out-duel the Cat and got the win...

Gotta look at every battle, no matter what as being win-able... but giving up from the start... you've already settled for that loss...

[Hardplace]

Knnniggett - Could not have said it better myself.

I often times find myself in a match and it has got to the point that it is 7 or 8 verse 1 or 2, My Cicada has DHS, FF, Endo, and a XL Engine, I am not going to rush of to die just to pay an expensive repair bill. I run away, I hide, and then sometimes if I am able and the disposition of my enemy allows it I walk up on the pack of enemies as they make their way to my base, leaving the wounded slower heavy/assault mechs in the back and I take advantage of the situation for an easy quick kill or two before the match ends.

Point is the match is not over until it is over, some times all you can do is hide, they might have lights rocking streaks your Cicada can not handle and it might be suicide to try and so the best thing you can do is wait it out and hide. Running from those lights, losing them on the map or using terrain to stay alive might be the best thing you can do in some situations but you should never stop trying to do the best thing you can or paying attention to what is going on around you so you can take advantage of the best options available.