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A little bit of Math on weapon effectiveness (feel free to discuss) .... Caution wall of text.


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#1 Nighthound

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:44 AM

I must confess I am a little bit annoyed by all that bickering and moaning on how the weapons work and what weapons are overpowered and which are useless. So I decided to mess about with the numbers and see what I can come up with.

What I did:
I took out my Master Rules and Solaris VII Rules and made a spreadsheet with all the numbers given in those books.
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Now these are a lot of numbers and you can't see much. So I decided to condense all those numbers to a more manageable format. First I removed the Min, Short and Medium Range columns as I figured what the heck I don't need those I want to know how far I can shoot and those increments are useless in MW Games anyway (Why should it be more difficult to hit someone with a small laser then with a large laser at 90 meters?). Secondly I condensed the Damage and Recycle columns to into one DpS column. Then I figured I reduce the Heat, Critical and Tonnage columns into one Construction Points (CPs) column. One Critical equals one CP, one Ton equals one CP and one Heat equals two CPs (because 1 HeatSink would cost 1 Critical and one Ton). I left Ammo alone for now.
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Now I tried to come up with a solution to incorporate Ammo into those neat CPs. What I did was I calculated the amount of Ammo needed for 1 Minute of sustained fire. Of course this meant that I had a lot of fractional numbers, which is impossible according to the rules but I had to balance it out somehow. Now I doubled those results (because Ammo also needs one Critical and one Ton) and added my CPs. Now I took these 3 Values and played around with them for a bit and I came up with Range * DpS / CPs and called it effectiveness. And I have to say I am quite happy with the result because it made some sense (at least to me).
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Now let's have a look at those numbers :

Energy Weapons :

As you can see nearly all energy weapons have an effectiveness of about .5 to .7 with the exception of the medium laser which pokes out quite a bit (if you would increase its cycle time to 7.5 it would still be top of the class but not by that much .... maybe an error?), the flamer (who cares about flamers?) and the pulse lasers. BUT if you remember that those pulse lasers are supposed to hit better than the rest of them that would make kind of sense (wouldn't it?). Considering that energy weapons have no ammo and therefore would last indefinitely and there is nothing to go boom and that they have no travel time, I think that it would make them nonetheless quite effective and you would have to increase that number (keep in mind the heat drawback of energy weapons is already incorporated into the CPs and there are not really any other drawbacks to energy weapons) . There are more pros and cons but those are more taste then actually something that you could incorporate into a formula (I don't argue about taste ..... it's pointless).

Ballistic Weapons :

Now I have to make some assumptions on these considering how they will work in the game (no one knows exactly how they will work). First of they seem to be quite effective (and somewhat all over the place). AC/5s and AC/10s seem to be equally effective, AC/2s way above average and AC/20s are not effective at all. (first) BUT if you consider that AC/2s have a very long Range and that you would seldom be able to take advantage of that range I think they are not quite that effective (I go into range and terrain later). (second) BUT if you consider that the AC/20 is one of two weapons in the game (as of now)that is actually able to take of heads and/or limbs with one shot then this would make it a whole lot more effective in my eyes (is this considered taste?). Now we come to the assumptions part. At first glance the Gauss Rifle is highly effective. BUT a "normal" cannon (read AC) should have a very high muzzle velocity and therefore a rather short travel time (about 3000-4000 meters per second) and a Gauss "ball" travels roughly at speed of sound (about 333 meters per second) which means a rather long travel time (2 seconds to reach its max range) making it rather difficult to aim at fast moving targets in the distance thus reducing its effective effectiveness (whoa, is that kind of sentence constructions really possible?). Given that all Ballistic Weapons have travel time, Ammunition (limited) and a chance to explode it should lower their overall effectiveness quite a bit. The LB-X ACs have the additional drawback of not hitting with everything they have and scattering their damage all over though they are easier to hit with. Ultra ACs can Jam ...nough said.

Missile Weapons :

All LRMs have roughly the same very high effectiveness, considering though the very slow travel time, Ammo needs(read limited # of salvos and chance to go boom), lock-on requirements, countermeasures available, large minimum range and that not all missiles will hit, this would have to be reduced a lot. SRMs have a lower effectiveness then LRMs and I would say it's quite ok considering that they have nearly (no lock-on, no min range) the same drawbacks as their long range counterparts. The SRM2 drops out a bit because somehow they only carry 90 missiles and all others carry 100 and the Streaks reduce the cons by one (all missiles hit).

Range and Terrain :

Now all these numbers are for open terrain and clear line of sight. If you would instead reduce the maximum range of all weapons (that have more than 13 hexes) to 13 hexes (400 meters) which would roughly equal 1-2 city blocks, we have a completely different story. Energy Weapons, SRMs, Gauss, and AC/20s would really dominate those maps with no equals in sight, which after all is no big wonder.
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Conclusions :

Yes I know it's not perfect but it can give you some pointers whether one weapon is better than another or how Overpowered (medium laser?) or Underpowered a weapon really is.

PS.: The weapons in gray are not available until the end of the 2050s
PPS.: Wow thats one big post ..... sorry :/

#2 Strum Wealh

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:09 PM

Could we get a table with the following columns:
  • Damage (to target) per Shot (Damage)
  • Heat (to firing 'Mech) per Shot (Heat)
  • Effective Range (in meters; [30 meters/hex] * [long range bracket value, in hexes])
  • Rate of Fire (ROF)
  • Damage per Second (DPS)
  • Heat per Second (HPS)
  • Damage-to-Heat per Second (DPS/HPS)
Thank you! :)

#3 eZZip

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:10 PM

Where did you get the recycle times? I had the impression that an AC/2's DPS would be 1/5 * AC/10's DPS, but instead it is 2/5 * AC/10's DPS in your post.

Fire rates should also be a measure of effectiveness separate from DPS (though I don't know how that would work into your calculations). Generally, if there were two weapons with the roughly the same DPS but differing fire rates, the weapon with the lower fire rate would be preferable (even if the weapon with a higher fire rate has slightly more DPS).

Edited by eZZip, 13 April 2012 - 12:10 PM.


#4 Hao Yu

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:21 PM

Heat as a balance factor got thrown out the window when double sinks were invented. ACs got the short end of that stick.

#5 Motionless

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:22 PM

Quote

BUT if you consider that the AC/20 is one of two weapons in the game (as of now)that is actually able to take of heads and/or limbs with one shot then this would make it a whole lot more effective in my eyes

Also with a weapon with a lower fire rate you can do things like turn your torso to expose an undamage (or less damaged) side for him to shoot at during the recycle. Weapons with shorter recycle restrict you if you want to bring their full 'effectiveness' to play.

#6 Strum Wealh

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:54 PM

View PosteZZip, on 13 April 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Where did you get the recycle times? I had the impression that an AC/2's DPS would be 1/5 * AC/10's DPS, but instead it is 2/5 * AC/10's DPS in your post.


The recycle times are from the Solaris VII: the Game World box set and a book called Solaris: the Reaches.

#7 Rambo Calrissian

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:17 PM

View PostNighthound, on 13 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

... and a Gauss "ball" travels roughly at speed of sound (about 333 meters per second) ...
Is it really that slow?
I always thought, the balls would be accelerated much more and would actually travel faster than the bullets of a conventional ballistic cannon.

#8 Nighthound

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:26 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 13 April 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

Could we get a table with the following columns:
  • Damage (to target) per Shot (Damage)
  • Heat (to firing 'Mech) per Shot (Heat)
  • Effective Range (in meters; [30 meters/hex] * [long range bracket value, in hexes])
  • Rate of Fire (ROF)
  • Damage per Second (DPS)
  • Heat per Second (HPS)
  • Damage-to-Heat per Second (DPS/HPS)
Thank you! :o



Here you go
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And you are welcome ;) (Hope it's what you wanted)

View PostHao Yu, on 13 April 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Heat as a balance factor got thrown out the window when double sinks were invented. ACs got the short end of that stick.


Not quite. IS Double Heat Sinks weight still 1 Ton but need 3 criticals and thus 4 CPs for 2 Heat leaving it the same. Although you could make the point that because the HeatSinks in the reactor are free that it would benefit energy weapons more. But I can't include a variable number of HeatSinks into a Formula and those would be more of a case for MechEffectiveness anyway.

View PostMotionless, on 13 April 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Also with a weapon with a lower fire rate you can do things like turn your torso to expose an undamage (or less damaged) side for him to shoot at during the recycle. Weapons with shorter recycle restrict you if you want to bring their full 'effectiveness' to play.


I would put that under taste, because you could (let's say with AC/2s) hinder your from shooting .... I find it quite irritating to get pinged the whole time.

#9 Suskis

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:26 PM

I think you should work more on this kind of calculations. The fact that the Medium Laser (obviously the weapon with the best heat/damage/weight ratio) has almost the same value of AC/2 (and useless pea shooter that weights a lot and produces as much heat as a Gauss Rifle) should make you rethink about the whole thing.

A note on heat sinks: Double Heat sink could have been a great, smart and balanced idea. Sadly, for an unknown, stupid reason, someone decided that ALSO the 10 built-in engine heat sinks would magically become double along with the external, bigger ones. And this for FREE. No extra weight or volume. For FREE. This is still one of the worst design decision the tabletop game authors have had in 25 years.

Edited by Suskis, 13 April 2012 - 01:30 PM.


#10 Aegis Kleais

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:30 PM

I take if you're the kind of person who finds comfort in giving a mathematical equivalency to these concepts, eh? :o

As far as spreadsheets go, it's nice. Could stand to use some data visualization though.

#11 eZZip

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:57 PM

View PostNighthound, on 13 April 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

I would put that under taste, because you could (let's say with AC/2s) hinder your from shooting .... I find it quite irritating to get pinged the whole time.
You're right: it is irritating to be shot at repeatedly. However, it can get a lot worse, like if one high-damage shot blows off your arm instead of a small gun dinking your armor 20 times, and then your enemy turns their torso to shield themselves/runs back into cover so that you can't return fire (which is especially true if YOU have the fast-firing, low damage per shot gun, since with something like a gauss rifle, you might be able to get a lot of damage off before they get away).

#12 Strum Wealh

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

View PostSuskis, on 13 April 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

I think you should work more on this kind of calculations. The fact that the Medium Laser (obviously the weapon with the best heat/damage/weight ratio) has almost the same value of AC/2 (and useless pea shooter that weights a lot and produces as much heat as a Gauss Rifle) should make you rethink about the whole thing.


Consider the interval from t = 0.0 seconds to t = 9.9 seconds:
  • The Medium Laser fires twice (at t = 0.0s and t = 5.0s; the next firing would be at t = 10.0s), dealing 10 units of damage (5 damage per salvo * 2 salvos) at 270 meters while generating 6 units of heat (3 heat per salvo * 2 salvos).
  • In the same interval, the AC-2 fires four times (at t = 0.0s, t = 2.5s, t = 5.0s, and t = 7.5s; the next firing would be at t = 10.0s), dealing 8 damage (2 damage per salvo * 4 salvos) at 720 meters while generating 4 units of heat (1 heat per salvo * 4 salvos).
At t = 10.0s to t = 19.9s, the cycle repeats.

While the Medium Laser does substantially outperform the AC-2 on a damage per salvo basis, the difference in damage over time (that is, once ROF is taken into consideration) is far smaller. :o

If AC-2 vs Medium Laser is surprising, please have a look at AC2 vs Large Laser/ER Large Laser/PPC/ER-PPC and AC-5 vs Medium Laser/Large Laser/ER Large Laser/PPC/ER-PPC... ;)

Edited by Strum Wealh, 13 April 2012 - 02:16 PM.


#13 Nighthound

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:10 PM

View PostAegis Kleais™, on 13 April 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

I take if you're the kind of person who finds comfort in giving a mathematical equivalency to these concepts, eh? :o

As far as spreadsheets go, it's nice. Could stand to use some data visualization though.


Like this? ;)

Effectiveness of all Weapons (Effectiveness column of my Table) in a Diagram.
Posted Image

And yes I do like numbers and math :blink:

Edited by Nighthound, 13 April 2012 - 02:30 PM.


#14 Orzorn

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

This table provides a good general idea of weapon effectiveness, however, parts of it do, of course, fall flat.

One major issue is that the model does not distinguish between front loaded damage and split damage. ACs do front loaded damage (although, depending on how they implement fire rates, some will do DPS, while others will do burst), lasers (at least MWO's current implementation) are damage-over-time weapons (they do their damage in minute amounts, probably less than one damage, but many of those "ticks" happen within a single second, over time), and LRMs are split-damage (that is, they do their total damage in packets that may or may not all connect, meaning a missile weapon does anywhere from 0 to its rated value in damage, depending on how many missiles actually hit).

Regardless, while those concepts are important to keep in mind when interpreting the data, I don't think the model itself needs to make any sort of distinctions.

Edited by Orzorn, 13 April 2012 - 02:14 PM.


#15 Strum Wealh

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:24 PM

View PostNighthound, on 13 April 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:


Like this? :o
Posted Image

And yes I do like numbers and math ;)


What are the axes on that graph? :blink:

#16 Nighthound

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:29 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 13 April 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:


What are the axes on that graph? :o


Doh ;) .... it's the effectiveness column of my Table. (Sorry my mistake ... will edit at once)

Edited by Nighthound, 13 April 2012 - 02:31 PM.


#17 Hollister

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:30 PM

So what your saying is that a UAC/2 and AC/2 are some of the most effective weapons if i am reading that chart correctly. Maybe this will shut up all the neigh sayers

Edited by Hollister, 13 April 2012 - 02:32 PM.


#18 Strum Wealh

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:42 PM

I'd like to request another table:
  • Weapon Weight (tons)
  • Weapon Volume (criticals)
  • Weapon Cost (c-bills)
  • Ammunition per Ton (shots per ton)
  • Ammunition Cost per Ton (c-bills)
  • Ammunition Cost per Shot ([c-bills per ton]/[shots per ton])
  • Damage per Ton ([damage per salvo]/[Weapon Weight + 1 ton of ammunition])
  • Damage per Critical ([damage per salvo]/[Weapon Volume + 1 ton of ammunition])
  • Damage per C-Bill ([damage per salvo]/Weapon Cost + Ammunition Cost per Ton])
Thanks! :o

#19 Aegis Kleais

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:52 PM

View PostNighthound, on 13 April 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:


Like this? ;)

Effectiveness of all Weapons (Effectiveness column of my Table) in a Diagram.
Posted Image

And yes I do like numbers and math :blink:

MUCH better. :o

#20 Motionless

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:52 PM

View PostHollister, on 13 April 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Maybe this will shut up all the neigh sayers

I think ponies have rotted your brains out.





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