19 replies to this topic

[Kerrus]

One thing that's always interested me about games that enforce non-omni mech design with hardpoint limitations of specific types, is the venerable and well used 'symmetrical battlemech', like any given Catapult, some Awesome variants, the Jenner, Cicada (that's pronounced "Sih-kay-dah" by the way), and really any other battlemech which has 90% symmetrical slots.

These designs, by their nature, encourage people to build bi-laterally balanced builds. The Catapult will mount the same type of LRM in both shoulders, the same type of laser on both sides of the torso- that sort of thing. A K2 will mount a pair of guass rifles on the left and right torsos, or perhaps a pair of large lasers on the shoulders. These mechs can take advantage of being symmetrical to balance their firepower across their structure- and often deliver double the firepower that an asymmetrical mech might.


Couple this with the fact that we have limited configurations per tonnage grouping, and it might seem like a player almost 'must' make a symmetrical design with a symmetrical mech.




But what about those who don't? I know it's not a thought that seems to pop up that often- I mean, in all my days of playing beta, I've almost never seen an asymmetrical build on a symmetrical chassis- but they do exist, certainly. I guess what I'm asking is what's your experience with asymmetrical builds? Do you run them? Do you like them? Or do you just run symmetrical builds on symmetrical mechs, and asymmetrical builds on asymmetrical mechs?



For me, my fascination with this type of build comes down to my favourite mech in the currently available selection: The Catapult K2.

While I tried my hand at gauss sniping back when I first joined, it proved to be very effective, but also not nearly as fun as providing direct support. Moreover, it was vulnerable to close attack. While I tried several variants, each had their flaws and ultimately when a reset came I abandoned running the gausscat altogether.


But I didn't abandon running the K2 altogether. I experimented with dual AC20s (which are hilarious, btw), but grew disatisfied with running out of ammo, or being unable to accurately target skirmishers with slow moving ballistics. I moved on to try a dual AC2, dual MLP build, which had some success, but proved to not have enough punch at the range most of my fights occured at.



Somewhere along the line, I got in a match that crashed- and when I reloaded, FedEx hadn't shipped my K2 back. I didn't have any other mechs, and the trial K2 didn't appeal to me- so I took a Hunchback for a spin.

The trial Hunchie was an interesting experience- but it was certainly effective when played right. I actually found myself wishing "If only the Hunchback was a heavy mech, instead of a medium."


I looked at the K2's hardpoints.

"Hunchcat?" I said to myself. I'd never seen one. Not ever. Could it work?

I stripped all the components out of my cat, dropped the engine down to 58kph, and fitted a single AC20 on the left torso. I considered running small lasers in the four energy slots, but my experience with close range combat and arm vs torso groupings had left me dissatisfied with that idea.

So I fiddled with a couple different configurations before settling on medium pulse lasers for the arms, the AC20, and five tons of AC20 ammo. The rest was heatsinks, of course, and I took the build to several matches. It did surprisingly well. While the MPLs weren't enough on their own to deal with skirmishers, they did let me keep the heat on until one of them crashed or overheated- at which point I slammed them with the AC20.


Still, it generally took a bit too long for the AC20 to kill them. I needed a bigger punch.

It was around this point that DHS, Endosteel, and Twilight Vampire Armor (Ferro Fibrous- it's supposedly 'better', but all it does is sparkle and take up space), were implemented. All my stuff was reset, and I was sad- but heartened by it being the last full reset. Deciding that it'd been a while since I invested in a game, I shelled out thirty or so bucks for MC, and bought two K2s. Then I sold the second one for enough Cbills to outfit the first.


Switching over to Endo Steel and Double Heatsinks, I was afforded enough tonnage to upgrade my engine to a 275 or the like, which let me stick some DHS in the engine, in turn saving space. While DHS were broken in their implementation (engine sinks don't double? wtf), I worked around it and soon found myself with more than enough tonnage to work with for my purposes- my main problem had become critical space, not tonnage.

I reproduced my previous build- MPLs in the shoulders, the AC20 in the left torso, five tons of ammo. But then I added some frills. I worked my armor around a bit, so that while I still had more than a stock K2, I wasn't running max armor. Experience taught me to avoid stripping the legs of armor, so I instead did a more balanced strip, edging out an extra ton.

With this free tonnage, I mounted an AMS system, and a single ton of ammo- enough to link with my lance's all AMS setup to weather LRM strikes while in formation, but also to eat into SRM hits when ambushing.

Stuffing the rest of the chassis with heatsinks, I was down to about a ton of weight, and two free criticals... in a leg.

Fortunately, MWO implements the CBT unbalanced endo-steel/FF critical system, where all your extra bulk can be shoved off into the arms you aren't using, or into legs you don't need. With two crits left, I solved the last major problem with perfecting the build: The AC20 doesn't do enough single shot damage when I need it to.

So I mounted two small lasers in the left and right torso- their sights lining perfectly up with the AC20, and providing me with a sort of 'laser sight' for the AC20.


This is the build I'm running now, and I've gotta say it's very fun. It's not a 'do everything' build, but it's very mobile and very strong when working together with your team. It can handle skirmishers, and packs a very impressive close range punch- although at the height of battle it can suffer from some heat issues- but nothing that management of my heat won't mitigate.

I've got three weapons groups at the moment. Group one are my MPLs, and group 2 is the AC20 and the small lasers. Group 3 is just the small lasers by themselves- if I feel the need to test out the heat dissipation, or use them as 'laser sights' to line up an AC20 shot.

It's definitely far removed from that gausscat I used to play, and certainly much more fun and 'fair'- although the AC20/2SL punch is certainly annoying for my enemies.


Given that I'm able to use this build, I'm really quite happy that MWO has applied a balanced stance when it comes to hardpoints vs free equipping. While games like MW3 avoided hardpoints entirely, and MW4 was very restrictive with them, I find that as much as MWO enables people to take advantage of abusive combos like the dual guasscat, without that system I'd never be able to run the Hunchcat I run now.

I'd much rather have to sneak up on the occasional hunchcat and engage in a close range duel- than to be facing and mounting useless machine guns all day long.

So yeah.




So, what're your asymmetrical builds for symmetrical mechs, and why do you like/love them?

[Lavrenti]

The Hunchback-4SP lends itself to asymmetric builds. If you want a LRM platform, for instance, a pair of LRM10s is a good place to start... but a LRM15 and a LRM5 throw just as many missiles, and are a ton lighter.
Alternatively, a LRM15 might be all the long-range firepower you want. You've still got a missile hardpoint left for a Streak or SRM to beef up your close-combat abilities.

[hanitora]

Given that my favourite mech, the Bushwacker is asymmetrical, I am no stranger to asymmetrical builds.

The only symmetrical mech I have and which I also have an asymmetrical build for at this point is the C4 catapult, though. I have a single small laser rather than two of them and the other energy hardpoint is a TAG. Ammo is in one side torso together with a CASE, heatsinks in the other.
I may give it a more creative build at some point, I am thinking of building a really unexpected close range brawler from it or perhaps the C1 cat. Time will tell. Currently it doesn't have an engine so I can't really do anything with it.

Edited by hanitora, 06 November 2012 - 12:48 AM.

[Mr 144]

Lavrenti, on 06 November 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

The Hunchback-4SP lends itself to asymmetric builds. If you want a LRM platform, for instance, a pair of LRM10s is a good place to start... but a LRM15 and a LRM5 throw just as many missiles, and are a ton lighter.
Alternatively, a LRM15 might be all the long-range firepower you want. You've still got a missile hardpoint left for a Streak or SRM to beef up your close-combat abilities.

Which is precisely my favorite use of the 4SP. Mixing and matching between the symetrical design to produce an asymetrical loadout that keeps an opponent guessing. By loading an LRM 20 in one side torso...and using the ammo early as a long range 'softener', I can produce a sacrificial torso when closing later in the match, while using the SRM 6 in the undamaged half. Of course I swap things around alot, so no one gets use to a specific layout The AWS-T Lends itself to this even more so.

Mr 144

[Lavrenti]

Mr 144, on 06 November 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Which is precisely my favorite use of the 4SP.

Actually, I think you're the one who gave me the idea for that. I'd just forgotten your name, that's all. Credit where it's due

[JewBoy]

As a hunchback pilot I can say asymetrical chassis suck, with my 4P and 4G people always go for my right shoulder. With my 4SP with dual LRM15s and dual MLs in each arm, they usually just try for my center torso.

[Lavrenti]

JewBoy, on 06 November 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

As a hunchback pilot I can say asymetrical chassis suck, with my 4P and 4G people always go for my right shoulder. With my 4SP with dual LRM15s and dual MLs in each arm, they usually just try for my center torso.

I've found they keep going for my right shoulder anyway - I certainly lose that more often than my left.

[Yokaiko]

I tend to build mix range, with a bias to close. So rarely will I mount an LRM, PPC + 4 SRM6 Awesome or gauss + dual srm Dragon, Cent -A with AC10 and Streaks.

I have a hard time justifying the AC20 over Gauss, ever, the heat advantage allows more damage from the rest of the loadout.

[Draco Argentum]

I'd make it even more asymetrical and put the MPLs in one arm opposite the AC20. Symmetrical builds make it as difficult as possible for an enemy to cripple your firepower by destroying a single location. Asym builds should try to achieve the same effect as much as possible.

[Dr Killinger]

Interesting read! I like the way you think. One weakness is that an asymmetrical build is often a lopsided build, allowing an enemy to easily pick off a specific component and leave you high and dry. But a symmetrical mech with an asymmetrical loadout leaves them guessing!

I actually tried my AS7-RS (not truly asymmetrical, but bare with me) with two Medium Pulse Lasers in the right arm and a Large Pulse Laser in the Left arm. it was my weight-saving solution at the time, before I could afford endo steel, and while it complicated piloting a bit by adding another weapon group (LPlas, 2xMPlas, 1xGauss, SRM, LRM... oh my!), it was an interesting build that confused my opponents and seemed versatile, and forced me to use a staggered firing rhythm that proved heat efficient and never let my enemy catch their breath. Also, when my right torso was inevitably taken out due ot the scary cannon sticking out of it, I lost two medium lasers with it, and had a large on the other arm still in working order. Not quite an argument compelling enough to warrant the asymmetry, but an interesting point to take note of when constructing a varied build.

I'll keep an eye on this topic, keen to see where it goes.

[MrKnox]

I know this is a bit of a divergence from the main topic, but it should be pointed out that your custom asymmetrical builds in historically symmetrical mechs has quite a large edge over the canon builds like the hunchie with the AC20... obviously because the enemy can't even see that you have this colossal piece of hardware strapped to your mech.
Would be nice if weapons somehow morphed onto the chassis as you added/removed them..

[Dr Killinger]

MrKnox, on 06 November 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

...the enemy can't even see that you have this colossal piece of hardware strapped to your mech.
Would be nice if weapons somehow morphed onto the chassis as you added/removed them..

On that note, it's great that the K2's massive barrels disappear when people put miserable little lasers in them in favour of massive ballistics in the torso. Makes my decision of whether to shoot them in the face or run like a girl much easier!

[Kerrus]

Dr Killinger, on 06 November 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

On that note, it's great that the K2's massive barrels disappear when people put miserable little lasers in them in favour of massive ballistics in the torso. Makes my decision of whether to shoot them in the face or run like a girl much easier!

Not exactly. The K2's massive barrels vanish if you mount literally anything that isn't a PPC. So ERLLs, LPS, LLs- any of those, and you get a dinky little stub of a barrel.

[Dr Killinger]

Kerrus, on 06 November 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Not exactly. The K2's massive barrels vanish if you mount literally anything that isn't a PPC. So ERLLs, LPS, LLs- any of those, and you get a dinky little stub of a barrel.

Ah, never knew that. I remeber a while ago I had an AS7-RS, which comes stock with an LRM15 and an SRM4. I took off the LRM15, and the tubes went away on the model. I replaced it with an SRM6, and they came back! It doesn't do it anymore though... I hope it comes back. I'm sure they can pull something similar with the K2... weight based perhaps?

[Kerrus]

I think it's more that they don't have renders for any non-PPC options yet. They definitely *want* to have a different render for lasers, or they'd just use the stock PPC one, so I'm hoping it looks pretty boss when they do implement it.

[Stargoat]

Kerrus, on 06 November 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

Cicada (that's pronounced "Sih-kay-dah" by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicada

/sɪˈkeɪdə/ or /sɪˈkɑːdə/

Whoops!

Edited by Stargoat, 06 November 2012 - 05:31 AM.

[Drunkspleen]

Kerrus, on 06 November 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

(that's pronounced "Sih-kay-dah" by the way)

"Sih-kah-dah" is equally acceptable

[Dukarriope]

I have a nigh on obsessive need to have my 'Mechs symmetrical in weaponry layout on symmetrical designs such as the Jenner or Catapult and it drives me nuts, but at least I've mustered the resolve to fit a one sided TAG and don't freak out over having an asymmetrical jumpjet/ammo/heatsink layout... even if it disturbs me...

It's just the same how I have a nigh on obsessive need to have any sort of possibly symmetrical layout symmetrical...



also i'm pretty sure it's siic kaeey daaarrrth!

Edited by Dukarriope, 06 November 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

In my 4SP I run MLs in my left arm and SLs in my right arm, to give me a low-heat arm to fire while trying to maintain DPS in a brawl.

[Mylar]

On my Cat-A1 I like a mix of LRMS and SRMS.

Originally I would go with the natural symmetry and do either two LRM racks and 4 streaks, or 4 LRM racks and 2 SRM6, with the weapons balanced between each arm.

In a Normal battle I would burn through my LRMS, then close in and brawl. Well, I always ended up brawling with half my short range loadout, because everyone shoots the ears off of the A1.

Now if I'm doing a LRM/SRM mix I load one ear with LRMS and the other with SRMS.

If scouts jump me early I SRM them and circle with the LRM ear towards them to soak the damage... LRMs will not do me any good if I die to the scouts.

If the fire support phase goes well and I run out of LRM ammo, I go brawl, once again using the now useless LRM ear as a shield arm.