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Do We Want Tech Level Advancement And Better Tech (Tech Level 1, Tech Level 2, Clan Tech)?


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Poll: Should Tech Level and Clan Tech represent real upgrades? (148 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Tech Level and Clan Tech represent real upgrades?

  1. Yes, absolutely. The match-maker will take care of the rest. (65 votes [43.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.92%

  2. IS Tech should be balanced against IS Tech, Clan Tech can stay superior. (40 votes [27.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.03%

  3. No, all weapon and gear should be balanced right out of the gate (29 votes [19.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.59%

  4. I don't know. (4 votes [2.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.70%

  5. LemonCurry / Special Snowflake Option (10 votes [6.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.76%

If we were to treat them as upgrades, what would you prefer? (Assuming the option to treat them as equals was no longer possible)

  1. Ensure that the current pace of combat would be the "endgame" combat with the most advanced tech (49 votes [33.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.11%

  2. Let the pace increase from the current one to the next one (30 votes [20.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.27%

  3. Let's start slower, but have the endgame pace more rapid (13 votes [8.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.78%

  4. Improve defensive tech (armour) to countermand the increased damage output of late technology (22 votes [14.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.86%

  5. Something else (34 votes [22.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.97%

If we were to treat them as equal in power, what would you prefer? (assuming the decision for them being equal could no longer be altered)

  1. Make more advanced Tech just have different trade-offfs (Example - ER PPC fires slower than PPC for more range, Clan ER Lasers fire faster but for lower damage)) (43 votes [29.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.05%

  2. Advanced Tech comes with drawbacks that cannot be compensated by other advanced tech (Example: No full DHS but maybe full ER PPCs) (22 votes [14.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.86%

  3. Something Else (83 votes [56.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 56.08%

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#1 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:05 PM

I think this is a fundamental question that I have the feeling has yet to be answered, in my opinion. I don't think we - customers or PGI - really seemed to have made up our mind on this.

For those unfamiliar with the Tech Levels and Clan Tech.
Spoiler

So in short, as the years progress, better tech became available, and it made old tech obsolete.

To handle all this, the Battletech table top game eventually introduced "Battle Value" - instead of trying to balance a match via mere tonnage, it assigned a "battle value" to certain gear and mechs so that if you only had old IS techs, you could still try to to build a reasonably "fair" match against Clan Mechs.

Now, the devs decided that IS Double Heat Sinks were too strong. We can all question their findings, but basically they seem to argue that it either made heat management irrelevant or allowed mechs that could put out too much damage and would worsen the gameplay experience.

That's one side. But - they also included all the higher level tech, and some of it only really works if you have all of it - you need DHS to utilize ER PPCs effectively, for example, otherwise you can't really hope to handle the heat load. but not all of it needs it - the Gauss Rifle is a great weapon on its own, beating the AC20 vastly in range and the AC/10 in range and damage, for less heat then either, and a decent level of ammo. It's an example of a tech that works fine without DHS, but not all of it will.


So for now, the answer to the question seems undecided. We have a mish-mash - Tech LEvle 2 tech that needs other Tech Level 2 Tech, which has been nerfed, and we hav Tech Level 2 Tech that works well on its own.
And in the not so far future, there may be Clan Tech, and we have again to decide - will Clan Tech be better than IS Tech?


There are 2 possible answers, and they will require different decisions.
1) We want the power increase.
It can be benefitial as it allows players to feel progress along the game. It's canon. And trying to balance all these upcoming tech so it is comparable to IS tech seems complicated and maybe even questionable.

If we do this, there will be some consequences. Inherent to Battletech is that the damage output of mechs increases vastly, but the defensive abilities of mechs don't as much. While many mechs can get faster, they don't get more armour - at best, they can make their armour lighter, but the maximum is still tightly limited. Ultimately this will lead to the pace of the game advancing more rapidly as we go along.

This will leave PGI with three options
a ) Accept it. High End Gaming is rapidly fast paced and different than Low End Gaming.
b ) Change more Advanced Tech so that armour can also become better to compensate the increased output.
c ) Balance the pace of the game at the high end. That may require something like using triple rather than double armour values,or cut all damage down by 1/2. Low level gaming is slower (which may be good for newbies even), and the pace rises as you grow in experience and acquire more powerful weapons.

2) Balance Everything on One Level
This is the, more or less, obvious alternative solution. This will require a few "nerfs". SSRMs as short range LRMs may need no real changes, but if we nerf Double Heat Sinks, we may need to alter ER PPCs in such a manner that they produce less heat (not needing "real" DHS), while still not overpowering the regular PPC (for example, they could deal less damage and have the same heat, but lose the range disadvantages.).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 November 2012 - 12:29 AM.


#2 Matist

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:17 PM

The main reason I'd like to see tech tiers is it'd be something long term to aim for in a chassis. For example right now it seems the game seems to be "collect them all", because it doesn't take long to max out a chassis. I've played a week and I can't think of much more to add to my HBK-4SP. I even have the elites unlocked and there isn't really any gear I want to add to it.

It'd be nice to be able to just stay specialized in a mech class and work towards optimizing that as much as possible and having long term gear wants.

#3 Bagheera

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:19 PM

As long as matchmaking compensates for tech tiers in some fashion, then we should absolutely have them.

#4 Zyllos

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:22 PM

Well, considering the reason why I think we are having all these issues is due to weapon convergence, I still feel that Level 2 Tech should be an upgrade and make the pacing of the game feel faster or more deadlier.

I really do not know what to add/remove for balancing. I can only suggest adding other heat penalties that Battetech has, double the CD of the Gauss Rifle, and lower LRM damage back to 1.5. With the other heat penalties, you could make the DHS 2.0 sense weapons fire ~3x the RoF, increasing heat dissipation by 2x still will make heat management important, especially if heat starts to slow a mech down, slower torso twist speed, reduce the damage/range of weapons, and have the random damage have a chance to do a critical hit, which could cause ammo to explode or the engine to break.

#5 Daekar

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:22 PM

Good thread, I hope PGI is watching. The only things I care about are no-aim weapons like streaks/LRMs, and keeping the pace of combat absolutely no faster than it is now. Much quicker and we'll be getting twitchy, and the moment that happens I'm gone. Honestly, I'm not sure how they're going to pull it off without adding more armor to compensate for the fact that they added thrice the damage and only doubled armor. Weirdest decision ever, considering they knew what would be coming.

#6 StandingInFire

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

It should all be balanced with tradeoffs, it makes the game play far more fun when you have more options rather than a linear upgrade tree.

Example the Clan ERPPCs mean you might as well remove ERPPCs as they have no place anymore, but actully having a trade off means you have deeper customization options.

#7 Protection

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:27 PM

I've said before, and I'll say again - straight upgrades are a boring way for players to do tech choices - it will lead to cookie cutters (which we have now, but that is a heat/weapon balance issue) and lack of endgame variety. Tech like double heatsinks and endo steel should come with tradeoffs - sidegrades, rather than upgrades.

As for clan tech, I am alright with it being flat out superior in every way - I was a big fan of the asymmetrical numbers idea (not listed).

Basically - clan get 5 mechs where IS would get 8, or 10 vs 12, or something along those lines. Clans get better mechs, IS get numbers. And killing a clanner counts as 1.5 kills for KDR enthusiasts.

#8 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:32 PM

I consider your solution the match-maker solution - the match-maker will ensure that Clan and IS are balanced when they engage each other - by what ever magic they do that I leave to the devs. :)

#9 Taryys

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:43 PM

I am thinking that with the change that the Trial Mechs are getting that they should be limited to Lvl 1 tech for modifications.

#10 General Taskeen

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

I think a lot of people forget that old school designs still use even "primitive" tech even when future tech is available. Heck, there is a whole "Primitive Upgrade" suite during the Dark Age Era. What's more humiliating then to be bested by someone using decades old Mech's and weapons? Nothing :). It's all about the pilot.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 November 2012 - 12:48 PM.


#11 Stormwolf

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

People tend to underestimate Clan tech since it was horribly nerfed in the past. A Atlas AS7-K (100 tons) is still weaker then a Timber Wolf Prime (75 tons) for instance. I am not even going to mention the Warhawk and Dire Wolf here. BV helps quite a great deal, at the very least a tonnage system where the IS can field 30 ~ 50% more overall tonnage would also work (depending on what the Clan side fields).

IMO, Clan tech should only be available to Clan players along with a ingame honor rules system to avoid abuse. IS players should only be able to get it by going on special missions (Trial of possesion, raid into Clan territory, etc), not through MC.

They might as well make Clan tech the same as IS level 2 tech if they don't have safeguards against abuse (I highly doubt that many players even know what Zellbrigen is). I want to keep the Clans fun for Clan and IS players without being overrun by powergamers who treat the Clans like hardware stores.

#12 Viper69

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

View PostStormwolf, on 06 November 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

People tend to underestimate Clan tech since it was horribly nerfed in the past. A Atlas AS7-K (100 tons) is still weaker then a Timber Wolf Prime (75 tons) for instance.


You underestimate PGIs ability to nerf said timberwolf into non relevance. Look at DHS for example, and that is only advanced tech for IS on the simplest level. You add in Clan tech into the equation, that is a recipe for nerf sandwich on rye. I plan to serve up clan hamloaf too.

#13 ArmyOfWon

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

I would like to see some clan tech as a middle between lvl 1 and 2 actually. For instance, having IS DHS be 2x heat dissipation with 3 crits vs Clan DHS be 1.4 x heat dissipation with 2 crits I think would go quite a long way in having actual balance in the game, but I know some people would probably object to that view.

#14 Draco Argentum

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:46 PM

I want everything balanced but with different feel. No vertical progression, just slot the new stuff into different niches.

Clan tech for example I would make fire slower than its IS counterpart and have better range. This gives the clans a feel of precision skill while the IS is spray and pray. That trade off could be balanced so that clan tech doesn't stomp IS tech but maintains a fluffy difference in the way it is actually employed on the battlefield.

#15 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:28 AM

Funnily enough, Draco, I would have done the opposite thing. My idea is that DHS would basically be a trade-off between high dissipation for lower heat capacity. That would be more useful to weapons with short firing cycles.

And since the Clanners supposodly have superior pilots, they can sure land precise shots even if they have little time for aiming. So all their weaponry would fire faster than the IS tech (similar DPS, but higher ROF).

#16 Draco Argentum

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:43 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 08 November 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Funnily enough, Draco, I would have done the opposite thing. My idea is that DHS would basically be a trade-off between high dissipation for lower heat capacity. That would be more useful to weapons with short firing cycles.

And since the Clanners supposodly have superior pilots, they can sure land precise shots even if they have little time for aiming. So all their weaponry would fire faster than the IS tech (similar DPS, but higher ROF).



Fair enough. I was going for the precision attacks = skill/honour aesthetic. Either works, except that my idea is clearly superior. ^_^

#17 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:50 AM

View PostDraco Argentum, on 08 November 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:



Fair enough. I was going for the precision attacks = skill/honour aesthetic. Either works, except that my idea is clearly superior. ^_^

If we ever meet on the battlefield, we will settle this like real mechwarriors (and adopt my solution.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 November 2012 - 01:50 AM.


#18 Draco Argentum

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:07 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 08 November 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

If we ever meet on the battlefield, we will settle this like real mechwarriors (and adopt my solution.)


One battle? Mere anecdotal evidence! We must solve this with graphs and spreadsheets.

#19 Eshek

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:16 AM

I don't want to see clan tech "balanced" with IS tech. What I do want to see is Clan tech restricted to Clan mechs, with Clan mechs and IS mechs never launching on the same team and the IS team always having a numerical advantage (12vs8 or 16vs8, depending on how it works out). Playing Clan should be a choice with consequences: you get the nice toys, but you're always outnumbered.

It would be hilarious if the devs also decided to enforce Clan honour rules.

#20 Komori

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:29 AM

Upgrades should be upgrades. Let matchmaker take care of balance.





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