81 replies to this topic

[Aym]

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Did they state that clan tech would be unavailable to part of the player base? My belief is that clan tech will be available to everyone...



We already have that situation now to an extent.

Yes, and they are actively balancing weapons frequently, isn't your original point that they SHOULDN'T balance tech, therefore leading to more of the current problem? Are you throwing the results of your suggestions back at me as a problem with the current system?

[Purlana]

Aym, on 08 November 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Yes, and they are actively balancing weapons frequently, isn't your original point that they SHOULDN'T balance tech, therefore leading to more of the current problem? Are you throwing the results of your suggestions back at me as a problem with the current system?

Do they really even try to balance the weapons? Look at PPCs, Large Pulse Lasers, Flamers, MGs.

All of those weapons are pretty much inferior to other weapons and are very rarely used. When was the last time they tried to balance those weapons?

And that's not even the point. Weapons on the SAME tech level should be balanced. Weapons on DIFFERENT tech levels should not.

Edited by Purlana, 08 November 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Komori]

Poll seems to be supporting the sane opinion. Too bad it won't matter for PGI anyway.

[Aym]

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Do they really even try to balance the weapons? Look at PPCs, Large Pulse Lasers, Flamers, MGs.

All of those weapons are pretty much inferior to other weapons and are very rarely used. When was the last time they tried to balance those weapons?

And that's not even the point. Weapons on the SAME tech level should be balanced. Weapons on DIFFERENT tech levels should not.

Large pulse lasers were buffed the previous weapons pass. If heat was being generated back then the way it was last week then their heat was also buffed, and brought back in line this tuesday. Flamers have been rebalanced a half dozen times, maybe you weren't in the closed beta for any considerable period, but flamers were rebalanced from doing too much damage to not enough, too much heat from not enough, and I don't think anyone here is saying they're done being balanced, same with MG's. Furthermore PPC's can't be balanced if they plan on introducing EW aspects to them (as they have stated they plan) because such an effect needs to be considered when deciding the relative merits of the weapon, as well as it's range, damage, cooldown, heat, slots, and tonnage.

[Purlana]

Aym, on 08 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Large pulse lasers were buffed the previous weapons pass. If heat was being generated back then the way it was last week then their heat was also buffed, and brought back in line this tuesday. Flamers have been rebalanced a half dozen times, maybe you weren't in the closed beta for any considerable period, but flamers were rebalanced from doing too much damage to not enough, too much heat from not enough, and I don't think anyone here is saying they're done being balanced, same with MG's. Furthermore PPC's can't be balanced if they plan on introducing EW aspects to them (as they have stated they plan) because such an effect needs to be considered when deciding the relative merits of the weapon, as well as it's range, damage, cooldown, heat, slots, and tonnage.

As I said that's besides the point, as those weapons are on the same tech level.

Also I doubt that are going to add the EW aspects to PPCs, they just eliminated collisions, and reduced the rattling caused by weapons so it seems like they are going in the opposite direction.

Edited by Purlana, 08 November 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Aym]

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

As I said that's besides the point, as those weapons are on the same tech level.

Also I doubt that are going to add the EW aspects to PPCs, they just eliminated collisions, and reduced the rattling caused by weapons so it seems like they are going in the opposite direction.

Oh, I'm being trolled, I see that now. If you weren't trolling with me you wouldn't constantly change your argument instead of refuting what I say.

[Purlana]

Aym, on 08 November 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Oh, I'm being trolled, I see that now. If you weren't trolling with me you wouldn't constantly change your argument instead of refuting what I say.

Refute what? Gear of the same tech level SHOULD be balanced. (Even though it isn't right now, and who knows when / if it will ever be)

Why should Clan tech be balanced with the tech that it replaces?

Edited by Purlana, 08 November 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

/grows horns on head

We COULD just make stuff perma loss on destruction, and then try balance with economic factors. Or just stronger economic influences based on tech levels... Maybe instead of loss of parts and mechs, they just get locked out of play until they are "repaired"...
/remove horns

Considering all the empathisis on how "OMFG MECH FACTORY VWXYZ HAZ BEEN DESTROYED, NO MORE MECH ABCDE!!!" the lore keeps bashing on our heads, I am surprised economics in this game are so... simplified...

Albiet, were missing the LP system AND have no idea what the heck CW will do to the economic side of the game...

Damit I can't make any of this not sound like EVE...

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 08 November 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I'd really like to know what people that voted "Something Else" on "
"If we were to treat them as equal in power, what would you prefer?"

would like to do instead of the alternatives. Or were they just saying they wanted the other option (not balancing, but providing an upgrade path). But it seems an academic question - most people seem to prefer the idea of an upgrade path. But also they seem to like the current pace of combat... Interesting.

[Walk]

Tiers should be avoided. Tiered gear always leads to bad gameplay and balance imo. A good example is wow. Although I have not played recently, last time I played the PvP gear was tiered. Someone with T1 gear was simply outclassed by someone in T2 gear, sometimes by having all their stats 20% higher. This creates a clear problem. In my opinion, everything in MWO should be balanced to some extent. Everything should be done with tradeoffs. For example, PPCS might have 7 damage, generate 2 heat, and have a cooldown of 4 seconds, whereas Clan PPCs might have 11 damage, but generate 5 heat and have a longer cooldown. Although the clan variant does more damage, its balanced more about strong bursts of damage, while the IS PPC, while similar, is better for sustained damage.

[Protection]

Komori, on 08 November 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Poll seems to be supporting the sane opinion. Too bad it won't matter for PGI anyway.

Why is that the sane option. The only argument for it is adherence to lore. Any games journalist or reviewer will tell you that a tiered equipment system in PvP with fewer options and no decisions is poor gameplay mechanics. You are reducing player choice and limiting options for builds.

Right now, any 'competitive' Light mech design must use endo steel. It is a requirement. Anyone who doesn't is running an inferior mech. But if we changed endo steel, so that it had some tradeoffs - maybe it was more likely to suffer critical hits, for example - then you would see some light players take the risk while others stick with standard internals, resulting in a larger viable build variety - and that's just one piece of equipment.

Why is reducing competitive player options a good thing?

[Draco Argentum]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

You are correct.


Seems tight, but I believe I may be winning.

He who controls the graphs...

MustrumRidcully, on 08 November 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'd really like to know what people that voted "Something Else" on "
"If we were to treat them as equal in power, what would you prefer?"

would like to do instead of the alternatives. Or were they just saying they wanted the other option (not balancing, but providing an upgrade path). But it seems an academic question - most people seem to prefer the idea of an upgrade path. But also they seem to like the current pace of combat... Interesting.

Its the way polls work, you must answer every question and that was the cloest pick for people who want them to be upgrades.

[MustrumRidcully]

Protection, on 08 November 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

Why is that the sane option. The only argument for it is adherence to lore. Any games journalist or reviewer will tell you that a tiered equipment system in PvP with fewer options and no decisions is poor gameplay mechanics. You are reducing player choice and limiting options for builds.

Well, theoretically one could have something like "Leagues".

The "Succession Wars" League where only IS Tech Level 1 is used.
The "Clan Invasion" League were IS Tech Level 2 fights Clan Tech (with appropriate group balancing).

Not sure what to do with TL 1 and TL 2 tech together, though. Machmaking intlligence?

Draco Argentum, on 09 November 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

He who controls the graphs...



Its the way polls work, you must answer every question and that was the cloest pick for people who want them to be upgrades.

The intention was to say they couldn't change it to upgrades anymore, because, say, PGI had made up its mind otherwise, and they know have to pick the "lesser evil".

[MustrumRidcully]

Komori, on 08 November 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Upgrades should be upgrades. Let matchmaker take care of balance.

How would you deal with the change of the game's pace when every mech starts to inflict more damage but armour points don't increase?

[Imagine Dragons]

Hardend armor of course!

...

[Taiji]

Making tech obsolete won't work in a game like this.

Protection, on 08 November 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

Right now, any 'competitive' Light mech design must use endo steel. It is a requirement. Anyone who doesn't is running an inferior mech. But if we changed endo steel, so that it had some tradeoffs - maybe it was more likely to suffer critical hits, for example - then you would see some light players take the risk while others stick with standard internals, resulting in a larger viable build variety - and that's just one piece of equipment.

Agree completely. Any must-have needs work.

Edited by Taiji, 12 November 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Rozav]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 November 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'd really like to know what people that voted "Something Else" on "
"If we were to treat them as equal in power, what would you prefer?"

would like to do instead of the alternatives. Or were they just saying they wanted the other option (not balancing, but providing an upgrade path). But it seems an academic question - most people seem to prefer the idea of an upgrade path. But also they seem to like the current pace of combat... Interesting.

I would like to see them balance things like STO (I found you, sir). More PvP maps.™

Balance more power tech out with outright costs. Repair/maintenance / reloads / sheer amount of CBills to purchase.

Even if the clans came in with their superior weaponry, the IS does not know how to repair that stuff. That's Lostech.

If you do decide to go in with your shiny clan / lostech X weaponry, then if you get cored / limbs blown off, there should be a possibility that you can't rearm / reequip that shiny clan LRM 20.

It's not readily available (you got it as salvage) and your IS techs don't know how to repair your broken one.

[Noth]

I feel there should be a difference, but it should be relatively small. On top of this the repair cost should not be increased by much. My reasoning for this is that if stacking all the more powerful gear and your repair prices jump up there is a chance that free player may not be able to afford to run the tech while premium players could. This is starting to tread in the pay 2 win area.

[MustrumRidcully]

Rozav, on 12 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

I would like to see them balance things like STO (I found you, sir). More PvP maps.™

Like STO? Make the system so complicated and bloated that no one has an idea how to model and balance it and we just go more by gut feeling and experience and never get things done?

I worry that PGI may be able to do the latter, but the system is not complicated enough yet to deliver the former...

[Draco Argentum]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Like STO? Make the system so complicated and bloated that no one has an idea how to model and balance it and we just go more by gut feeling and experience and never get things done?

I worry that PGI may be able to do the latter, but the system is not complicated enough yet to deliver the former...

Its probably a bad idea to even try that. The Enhancement Shaman in WoW used to be so complicated that people resorted to java apps to work out the best gear to wear for max DPS. If MWO has enough people who can code and take it seriously any complexity will be solved.