48 replies to this topic

[GreyTemplar]

Though I didn't start playing until the late 90's so the Clans were already out, I prefered the balance of Succession War tech. I felt more limited, and needed to be a lot more careful using it. I liked that.

So I'll go with mixed feelings.

[Marcus Hazen]

On the 3030 MUX most of the scenarios used oldtech, but we also had '50 '55 and even times were we used newer tech (that was the reason to code RACs, Heavy GRs and the like).
The main difference was that oldtech seemed to define roles the best, light recon, medium strikers, heavy support, and assault.
In '50 tech light Mechs became obsolescent, except in the hands of the best recon pilots, medium Mechs took over the recon role by the fact that they were able to run away in most cases from heavier Mechs. Heavy Mechs became more of the main line fight units, while assaults lost some ground.
'55/'58 added more versitality and even more Heavy Mechs that filled more combat roles (MDG/FLC) which in the way most scenarios were done meant they were more usefull than assaults except when a particular fight extended in a huge multi hour battle, where people were able to recalibrate to other mechs in time.
Successfully fielding C3 lances, Arrow IV mechs and other newer tech Mechs with RACs HGR ERML, did make the recon, and light medium Mechs more usefull, but also a lot more vulnerable.
Keep in mind that most MUXes did not allow modifications to Mechs apart from OMNIs, (even tho we did have the code to do that), I do recall some MU*es with more economy that sold refit kits in addition to whole Mechs, but even that wasn't real modification apart from just picking anohter variant.
And admins did inject replacement Mechs to losing or both sides (coreing Mechs was one of the main roles for light Mechs during after battle salvage ops ;-)) to keep the balance in a running scenario.

Edited by Marcus Hazen, 19 August 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[TG Xarbala]

I don't have any rose-tinted glasses regarding balance in the original game especially since anybody with access to the construction rules would know that from the beginning, lower-rated ACs had all of the downsides of ballistics (ammo dependencies, severe weight inefficiency) but nothing to merit their use without introducing special rules to make them effective in a niche role. Machineguns were practically suicide if you didn't just dump your ammo or not bring any. Small Lasers were less than an afterthought. Medium Lasers were too efficient in terms of damage-to-weight-and-heat compared to many other weapons and wound up being essentially the closest thing you had to a "must have" weapon.

Star League lostech provided interesting side-grades and the UAC/5 was the closest thing you'd get to an AC/5 that was a legitimate threat. Double Heat Sinks just about broke a lot of what was interesting about the game's construction rules since those free engine sinks meant every `Mech that had them could automatically sink 20 heat without adding anything else to the party. All in all, though, grognards who complain about the introduction of lostech and its effect on "balance" speak more from nostalgia than real game design sense. The core tabletop game was, and is, flawed but interesting. Lostech didn't remove or worsen those flaws, but it helped keep things interesting.

I don't have a very high opinion of Clantech, though. CLPLs were basically ISPPCs with a to-hit bonus and twice the range of ISLPLs. Clan Pulses were designed by someone who knew he wanted Clans to be stupidly strong but didn't know how to make them strong in a tactically interesting way. CERPPCs are basically a half-weight Gauss Rifle that doesn't rely on ammo and their headcapping reputation is well-documented. CLRMs are ridiculously lightweight with no minimum range--Clan ATMs, theoretically an advancement in missile technology, are inferior to CLRMs in almost every practical context! And CERMLs are basically tiny IS Large Lasers that you can boat. That's right, a Clan throwaway "spare tonnage" weapon is almost identical in performance to one of the IS' main guns. These four weapons, as I've said time and again, are just so blatantly overpowered that not even other Clan weapons can compare to them.

Later developments, like Clan Heavy Lasers, are much more tactically interesting. They deal extreme damage but at the cost of negating the Clans' skill and range advantage while heating up so quickly that you may as well just douse your `Mech in napalm.

Jihadtech is very tactically interesting and more balanced than Clantech but by this point the damage the Clans did to game balance was already dealt. You'll note a lot of nifty stuff made in the late FedCom Civil War, early Jihad era is pretty inefficient. But they do interesting things and signal a return to purpose-built machines that make sacrifices to gain specialized advantages. The Wobbie Archangel might not have much in terms of firepower but it's a Zombie of the highest order and an excellent lynchpin to a Blakist iC3 Level II.

Which is good, because the BV you'll need to run a Manei Domini Level II means you'll be fighting a whole Company or Clan Binary.

[Ace Kaller]

The initial inclusion of clan/lostech made things interesting, I'm talking TRO:3050 type stuff. Things got a little rediculous once they started branching out after that.

On the topic of unbalanced tech and rules, anyone remember the horribly written rules and tech from the old Tactical Handbook? I remember when that thing first came out, it made a total mockery of our games. At first everyone loaded up on Dead-fire LRM's, since even with crap accuracy, they were critical hit making machines (each LRM doing 2pts, each individual missile having it'* *** location rolled). The our FWL player discovered Magnetic Pulse Warheads, and that he was the only one with them, so suddenly the FWL started fielding ALOT of Catapults, Archers, etc. The TacHandbook rules for MPWs were so bad that all of us Non-Marik players designed special "Anti-MPW" companies to deal with them (Load up on AMS, TSM, physical weapons, etc) and we basically had to use our own in-house rules for objective raids to steal the technology, so that once everyone had them, we all agreed not to use them. And then of course there was the engine explosion rule, which someone decided to exploit to create virtually un-armored light mechs with the biggest engine you could pack into it and send it on a charging attack, which basically meant that on a roll of 8+, the little super locust one-hit-killed your Atlas in a big fireball

Edited by Ace Kaller, 22 August 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[Tyrell Biggs]

I prefered the scavenger hunt for lostech. However, I did like the 3025 versions of most of the 2750 'Mechs.

[Warmonger2600]

My favorite era will always be the 3025-3030 time frame.

[Steelwhip]

the introduction of the clans destroyed the game for me

I stopped playing it not to long after they released the clans. it was to far borken. the first game I ever played with the Clans was 5 clan mediums against 10 IS heavies-if I remember correctly it was a scenario from the first clan scenerio book...battle of twykard or something (hey-it was over 20 years ago.cut me some slack). I was running the IS mechs against a guy who i regular beat usually with little problems in regular IS games

He tabled me in short order. Somthing he had never been able to do in any game we had ever played

it was at that point I realsed how broke the clans were. I gave it some more time. tried to play it some more. but in the end i was left with a very sour taste in my mouth. I stoped playing the game totally at that point and havnt touched the table top since then.

I get the point of having to have a story line advance, and compared to ANOTHER popular table top mini game I have always applauded FASA advancing the storyline-and truthfully its better than if they had gone the route of aliens invading the IS. but the implimentation failed miserabley.

yeah I know..BPV is out now and is supposed to level the playing field. but that didnt come out till years after I left the game and all we had to rely on was tonnage. and in that regard FASA failed hard in their balancing. and I always thought using clans were easy mode. hardley have to worry about managing your heat while running around dumping full alpha striks everywhere (all right maybe a bit of an overdramatization.but please. the heat to damge output on clans dwarfs IS mechs)

yeah call me a bitter old Grognard. Im fine with that. Ive earned it
3025-Real Mans Battletech

and I really miss the Unseen

[Exilyth]

Clan tech forced people to build bigger plates. Or use more mapsheets.

[Warmonger2600]

I enjoy playing Inner-Sphere against clan. But mostly because I like combined warfare using infantry, vehicles, tanks, VTOLS, and mechs to try and trap the Clan players in a damage vice.