49 replies to this topic

[BduSlammer]

From what i see in this game from the single heat sinks , those that are used to the double ,are going to propbley have to change thier game style every time they alpha strike and shut down. Just hope they dont get too mad if thier mech goes boom due to over heating.

[Kaemon]

then they'll quit, get over it, or the devs will make an adjustment if too many complain about it.

That's one of the (many) nice features of F2P.

[pursang]

Double heat sinks where re-discovered in 3028 after the discovery of the Helm Memory Core, and in serial production by 3041. They where also fielded by 'Mechs like the BJ-3 Blackjack. And besides that, you don't exactly need double heatsinks if your weapons don't cause that much heat.

Just sayin'.

http://www.sarna.net...ouble_heat_sink

ALPHA STRIKE in yo face!

Edited by pursang, 17 April 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[BduSlammer]

That is true about the double heat sinks, but do you think we are going to get them right off .

Edited by BduSlammer, 17 April 2012 - 04:31 AM.

[Paladin1]

I'd say that DHS will be in the game and available from day one, but I don't think they will be fielded by any starter designs.

[Strum Wealh]

As previously indicated, DHSs were rediscovered in 3028, and were put into serial production by 3041.

That being said, the Devs seem to be are making a point of making MWO less "alpha-heavy" than previous titles (as shown in Q&A 05):

Quote

What, if any, mechanic will be in place to prevent a large group of single-type weapons from devastating a single location, a problem that has plagued just about every incarnation of MW to date? –Thomas Hogarth

[DAVID] We’ve got a few systems in place to handle that problem. One is having weapons such as lasers do damage over time so that, in order to deliver full damage to a single location, you have to hold your fire on the location, which can be difficult when you and/or your target are moving.

Another consideration is the separate arm and torso aim reticles. They will naturally line up with each other but, whenever you aim, you’ll lead with your arms while the torso catches up. This means that, if you want weapons in both locations to hit the same spot, you’ll have to hold your shot until they all aim at the same point.

An additional aspect of our aiming system is weapon convergence. I touched on this in a post I made in reply to Dev Blog 5, but some of you may have missed it so I’ll copy it over here:
Basically, your targeting systems are always trying to adjust the angle of your weapons so that they converge or focus at a distance of whatever your aiming reticles are pointing at. So, if you fire at a target very far away, your lasers (or whatever else) may fire nearly parallel to each other; firing at a target up close will angle the shots inwards. However, the adjustment of these angles is not instant.

For instance, if you were facing a building, while taking cover right up against it, your convergence would adjust to hit just a short distance in front of you (the distance to the building). When you step out from around that building and fire on an enemy in the distance, your convergence point would automatically begin to adjust, but not instantly. If you shoot too soon, your first shots may converge and cross a short distance in front of you and completely miss the enemy as they pass on either side of him. Or perhaps you were aiming for the centre torso and hit his arms instead, as your aim adjusts towards his centre.

It seems that while group firing and alpha-strikes may still be possible, the time of the "twitch-reflex crack-shot poptarts"/"god-alpha brawler" dichotomy being the only practically-viable forms of play is intended - and desired - to remain a relic of the past...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 17 April 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[RedHairDave]

i do hope the boats are removed, they dont fit in the story of battle tech. never in the storys were there guys loading mechs with nothing but ppc's and planning a alpha shut down strike.

[EmCeeKhan]

I could see the value of an Alpha Strike if it were like a one-time power (like only used once per battle) that you'd have to earn, and even then, it would require a particular situation before you could use it. But that seems unlikely.

Everyone keeps suggesting to crank up the heat that shuts down the Mech. I think the best way to make the PPC/LRM Alpha twinker go away is to make those weapons extremely expensive to fix/maintain/arm. Like Paladin 1 said, I wouldn't allow starter designs to be Alpha Strike worthy. And even vets would have to struggle to keep enough money around to keep their PPCs/LRMs in service.

[Mechteric]

recall that IS double heat sinks take up 3 criticals each, the same as a PPC mind you. So you'll be paying for boating energy weapons by the necessity of the double heat sinks. Hopefully this and not having coolant flushes can help ensure the balancing act.

[zorak ramone]

Lack of DHS will not stop GR / Heavy AC alpha strikes.

[Vandul]

zorak ramone, on 17 April 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Lack of DHS will not stop GR / Heavy AC alpha strikes.

Indeed, one of the advantages of an ammo dependent mech. The ability to unload without heat trauma. That being said, were not discussing weapon recycle times here either, something that figures in as well.

[Major Tom]

BduSlammer, on 17 April 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

That is true about the double heat sinks, but do you think we are going to get them right off .

Alexander Hamilton says "yes".

[EmCeeKhan]

Vandul, on 17 April 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

Indeed, one of the advantages of an ammo dependent mech. The ability to unload without heat trauma. That being said, were not discussing weapon recycle times here either, something that figures in as well.

And that would also figure in a one-time deal.

By the time your 'Mech could fire everything again, the enemy would have disabled some of your weapons or wiped your 'Mech.

[Outrider01]

Alpha boats are a valid tactic. Its one shot, high gamble risk.

Don't like it and think its cheap? Belive its a dirty tactic?

Let me point you to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


Yes. Hard Hitting one shot strikes that result in quick victory. Its a little different in the real world vs a video game, but it comes down to it that some dude found a tactic that balances heat and energy weapons to take you out. You wither and crumple up, but everytime you come up against a one shot wonder mech it puts you into the ground. You just cannot find a valid tactic to counter it and eventually come up against everyone running around with the same weapon's loadout because its so effective...not much different then issuing every soldier that isn't a specialist in the army with the same gun (M16 and AK-47 come to mind). So, its working as intended for the other guy...he found a winning solution that guaranteed a good chance of winning. Got to give them credit for that.

But! With the limits of the mechlab, it looks like only a few mechs instead any mech will be capable of mount extreme amounts of laser weapons and any assault mech might be capable of several large caliber weapons. It isn't hard to figure out that assault mechs and what will become the FOTM laser boat mechs that you should give a wider berth to.

[verybad]

Doubt it, people are always going to alpha strike because it's a more efficient way of hitting a target in the same spot, or at least same general area, it also allows you to seek cover when you're not firing, thus making you less vulnerable. People may adjust their weapons package to make up for more heat if necessary, but alpha striking is not going anywhere.

There's nothing magical or fancy about alpha striking. Say you've got 2 medium lasers, an AC-5 and an LRM-10 like a Dragon. That's not a big deal to all fire at once. While you may build up some heat, it's not catastrophic by any means.

[JadeTimberwolf]

Alpha Strikes shouldn't be a common occurance in my opinion, It is a manuver that it typically refered to as a last ditch effort move, much like Death From Above is on many jump capable mechs. I do have to day I don't understand where the setiment that loading a mech with as many as a single weapon as possible is classified as 'not fitting the story' take for example that FS9-M2 varient of the Firestarter, 6 flamers backed up with 1 ER Medium Laser. This particular mech has 2 purposes IMHO, first is anti infantry and the second is generating heat on enemy mechs.

[verybad]

It's only a last ditch move in the novels, in TT play, on the mechs that are capable/designed of doing it, it's pretty much an every turn play.

Some mechs are designed to have brackets of range fire, and can't alpha strike all their weapons without gaining heavy heat. Othe mechs can do it every round without risk.

Far too much is being put on the novels weight here. Of the mechs in the known list so far. All of them can alpa strike at least once without having severe penalties (more than -1 movement penalty) in the TT game. Most without even that penalty. (not counting any movement)

While you gotta manage your heat, an alpha strike means different things to different mechs. An Awesome should be alpha striking (not counting the Small laser most of the time, but who does) at least half of the time if it's being properly used.

Realtime play may make some spreading out of the weapons firing necessary, but I think the benefits of seeking cover while not firing will be more important so long as your alpha isn't catastrophic.

Oddly enough, the mechs that gain the most heat when alpha striking are mostly clan, as some of their designs are almost ridiculously high in firepower, but also hot weapons (ERLLs and ERMLs I'm looking at you)

[Steamroller Stig]

It's not going to stop alpha strikes coordinated between multiple mechs

[TheRulesLawyer]

How can there be less than zero? I would be happy if alpha striking were impossible, or fatal.

[Kenyon Burguess]

between the weapons alignment issues,DOT system, and players defensive use the terrain, the price is going to be high for those who want to alpha a crap-ton of lasers all the time. i can see quite a few of the 1 button killers getting pissy about being noobs suddenly like the rest of the community, but i dont see that effect lasting very long. after a week everyone will be used to the new rules and the nerd rage will end.

now the FnF missle boats, those poor folks are gonna be in for a harsh awakening. having to hold a sight on a fast moving mech to get the missles to hit is gonna bring skill into the equation that will take alot of patience and extremely good ammo conservation

Edited by Geist Null, 17 April 2012 - 12:42 PM.