201 replies to this topic

[Soule]

InnerSphereNews, on 18 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Are hardpoints limited by the weapons that come stock with the mech? By that I mean will there be hardpoints available on a chassis that a particular configuration doesn't use? –BarHaid
[DAVID] The hardpoints will be based on the default loadout of a given ’Mech. However, different variants of the same ’Mech will have different default loadouts and, therefore, different hardpoints.
A Swayback Hunchie would have energy hard points in the arms, and right torso cannon mount. Does that mean in the left torso, where no weapon is normally mounted, there are non-weapon hard points for empty crit slots, which means no weapon can be mounted there? –Namwons

[DAVID] Yes, if there are no weapons in a location on the default loadout, then there will be no weapon hardpoints in that location. Equipment generally doesn’t use hardpoints and can be placed anywhere, including the Hunchback’s left torso.
How will the hardpoint system apply to body sections that do not normally have weapons (but could) like the Centurion's left arm? –Morquedeas

[DAVID] If there is no weapon there in the default configuration of a particular variant, there will be no hardpoints there for you to mount weapons on.

syngyne, on 19 April 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

However, as the devs posted in this thread earlier, the base 'Mech config may actually have extra hardpoints above what its base loadout requires, it's just that they're not being used because the 'Mech is already at its weight limit. So, for the Awesome, while it only has one PPC mounted in its arms, there may actually be two or three total energy hardpoints there, it's just that there's only one in use by the base loadout.

The QnA seems to say no to what your thinking.

[syngyne]

Soule, on 20 April 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

The QnA seems to say no to what your thinking.

Only if there were no weapons in that location to begin with. If you look, there's another reply in this thread where they say just because a Mech only has one energy weapon mounted doesn't mean there's only one spot in that location to mount an energy weapon, there may be additional that aren't in use.

Also, given Paul's recent reply in the GD Mechlab thread, I'm not entirely sure about the terminology anymore. It sounds like the individual spots for a weapon aren't hardpoints. But the net effect still sounds like what I was thinking-- you have two types of restrictions on what you can mount, physical space (crits) and a cap on the number of each type of weapon you can put there (what I thought were hardpoints before).

Edited by syngyne, 20 April 2012 - 10:27 AM.

[Soule]

syngyne, on 20 April 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Only if there were no weapons in that location to begin with. If you look, there's another reply in this thread where they say just because a Mech only has one energy weapon mounted doesn't mean there's only one spot in that location to mount an energy weapon, there may be additional that aren't in use.

Also, given Paul's recent reply in the GD Mechlab thread, I'm not entirely sure about the terminology anymore. It sounds like the individual spots for a weapon aren't hardpoints. But the net effect still sounds like what I was thinking-- you have two types of restrictions on what you can mount, physical space (crits) and a cap on the number of each type of weapon you can put there (what I thought were hardpoints before).

They seem to be contradicting each other, lol I only wanted to spend a little time trying to figure out what they really meat and it’s been more then an hour now.
Right now with the contrary information I don’t think we can really say what they meant by what they said (oh man did that sound like Yogi Berrai)
We need to see a real mech lab step by step removal of a PPC and what can be put in it’s place.
Or at least that’s what this stupid guy thinks.

[syngyne]

At this point I guess the safest bet is "all the guns will not fit in the head."

[Soule]

>.< I just had an image of a Troll sputtering in rage typeing in caps "BUT YOU SAID 4 PPCS GO INTO HEAD FINE!"

[DaMuncha]

Q. If theres a LBX Autocannon mounted on the arm of my Mad Cat, Mauler, Thanatos, Wolf, Shadow Cat, Vulture, Black Knight, owens, can I take it off and replace it with a Large Laser?

It's sounding like the MWO Mechlab will be an exact clone of the MW4 Mech Lab which I absolutely hated.

http://www.thatgamer.../04/MW4-SS1.jpg

P.S. What the hell do we have if we dont get clan mechs?

MWO will suck without clan varients.

Edited by DaMuncha, 20 April 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[Soule]

DaMuncha, on 20 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Q. If theres a LBX Autocannon mounted on the arm of my Mad Cat, Mauler, Thanatos, Wolf, Shadow Cat, Vulture, Black Knight, owens, can I take it off and replace it with a Large Laser?

It's sounding like the MWO Mechlab will be an exact clone of the MW4 Mech Lab which I absolutely hated.

http://www.thatgamer.../04/MW4-SS1.jpg

P.S. What the hell do we have if we dont get clan mechs?

MWO will suck without clan varients.

It's not mw4, that I think we can say.
Think of it as field refits instead of full on factory refits, it will make you hapier

[zudukai]

i made a bit of a typeo i meant to put, swapping a PPC for 3 lasers by buying one laser, and having it magically create another laser when you want to put a laser in another part, but the question was answered, THANKS!

for those that were confused, you should understand better now.

[East Indy]

syngyne, on 19 April 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

I have no idea why people keep getting confused on the hardpoint/critical issue.

The devs' replies contradicted each other, and the CM's post was speculative — that's why!


Let's take David's second comment on the subject. Here, he makes it fairly clear: weapons can only be replaced one-to-one, while some variants will offer differing hardpoint counts (e.g., were it in-game, the canon 2D Shadow Hawk would carry two additional hardpoints; one for the SRM and one for the medium laser):

Quote

[DAVID] The hardpoints will be based on the default loadout of a given ’Mech. However, different variants of the same ’Mech will have different default loadouts and, therefore, different hardpoints.

Further on in the piece, David answered a similar question, removing any doubt as to what he meant:

Quote

[DAVID] Yes, if there are no weapons in a location on the default loadout, then there will be no weapon hardpoints in that location.

Then he answered the same question again:

Quote

[DAVID] If there is no weapon there in the default configuration of a particular variant, there will be no hardpoints there for you to mount weapons on.

Finally, between two replies, he drew a distinction between hardpoints and critical slots:

Quote

[DAVID] The hardpoint system will be related to how many weapons are in the default loadout, and not how many slots those weapons take up. . . . So let’s say that I’m allowed 2 energy weapons in my right arm. I currently have 2 Medium Lasers which occupy 1 slot each. I would still be allowed to put in 2 Large Lasers, which occupy 2 slots each.

It's only in the final answer that Paul claimed that critical slots, not hardpoints, determine weapon space. Either David or Paul is wrong; based on their statements, they can't both be right.

Edited by East Indy, 21 April 2012 - 07:29 AM.

[Damocles]

Or they're both right.

And both criticals and hardpoints determine weapon space.

ML uses 1(x) criticals ("slots) and you have 1 energy hardpoint. You have enough critical space to fit in that hardpoint.
LL uses 2(x) criticals ("slots) and you have 1 energy hardpoint. You have enough critical space to fit in that hardpoint.
PPC uses 3(x) criticals ("slots") and you have 1 energy hardpoint. You do not have enough critical space to fit that hardpoint. (For whatever reason)

other factors: weight (tons).

I bet this has been said before though.


Edit: the problem we have with the use of criticals is that we are assuming as in TT that all mech spreadsheets will have the same critical space. Do not ignore that possibility that in MWO that is not true.

Edited by Damocles, 21 April 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[East Indy]

David's statements are pretty definitive, though. Just take the PPC hypothetical:

Quote

[DAVID] The hardpoint system will be related to how many weapons are in the default loadout, and not how many slots those weapons take up

Quote

[DAVID] So let’s say that I’m allowed 2 energy weapons in my right arm. I currently have 2 Medium Lasers which occupy 1 slot each. I would still be allowed to put in 2 Large Lasers, which occupy 2 slots each.

The hardpoint system should take precedence, then, allowing placement of your PPC wherever a vacant hardpoint exists. Otherwise, why bother with the "hardpoint" mechanic? Just allocate weapon-specific critical slots based on default stock/variant loadouts and limit weapon replacement accordingly (acknowledging what you note in your edit about critical slots).

To clarify my purpose, here: I'm sure the devs will sort this out between now and launch day. I've been casually keeping an eye on the game over the last several months, and when I decided to catch up this morning, I didn't expect to spend 5 minutes scrolling up and down, going, " . . . Huh?"

[Damocles]

Well I see your point, but as I understand the basic idea that the hardpoint and critical systems are not exclusive of each other.
I think though as the devs have said (Shut up and Wait™ lol) we just are speculating on something that may or may not be there.

We might see too much or too little customization availability to our personal tastes but obviously without the game in front of us we're...talking to the stool so to speak.

This mornings' posts by Damocles brought to you primarily by:


Cheers!
Your resident inebriated Assault pilot.

[Aegis Kleais]

JadeTimberwolf, on 19 April 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

It is an interesting opinion but the design of an OmniMech is so that it doesn't ever have weapon specific hardpoints, hell in Paper&Pencil MWRPG gameplay if your running an Omni and you have all of the parts for a couple different varients your supposed to be able to change out 1 varient for another as you need while always using the same mech. Some of those varients even have more weapons mounted then the base varient. I know it is going to be at least 2.5 years canonically before we see IS produced OmniMechs so my question may not have a sense of urgency but if we are going to be allowed to play clans right from the start of the clan invasions that is less then a year away canon.

If all mounts are omni, I guess that's fine too, but it does make me see any Clan Omnimech as just a "gunbag" where you're just looking for the Mech that has the most weapon mounts for the tonnage.

PGI said that the Mech's default variant would determine it's mounts (so I assume this means that if you look at where the weapons are, you can assume that a weapon type mount is there. If we make, for example, the Timberwolf have all omni mounts, it would allow the Mech to be a full boat of any type, and (just IMO) gives the Mech less personality. There are some variants that might allow for energy weapons in the 'ears', but even in those, I was hoping that it WOULD have omni slots, but it wouldn't be every single mount.

Just my personal opinion.

[Damocles]

Possible way of handling clan omnis:

You buy the chassis - Timberwolf Prime which comes with its full loadout.
Each variant (including the Prime) is fully hardpointed.
What allows the omni capability is that you buy the chassis ONCE.

And are able to switch between variants (and their total hardpoint loadouts, i do not mean changing individual hardpoint types) where you like.

Just a thought.

Edit: You could also "Tier" access to variants by building experience in the chassis and unlocking each new one.
And the visual changes between each variant should be included

Edited by Damocles, 21 April 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

This thread will either end in Off-Topic or in the Clans forum.

[Hidran]

no decals? darn. or did I misinturpret the answer?

[mitchman5454]

i thought this was a game

[KageRyuu]

Why are they keeping the worst feature from MechWarrior 4 when there's no precedent for it in all of Battletech history? I speak of course of that black horrid word, "Hard Points". I spit my venom at them and curse them to die.

[Rejarial Galatan]

DaMuncha, on 20 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Q. If theres a LBX Autocannon mounted on the arm of my Mad Cat, Mauler, Thanatos, Wolf, Shadow Cat, Vulture, Black Knight, owens, can I take it off and replace it with a Large Laser?

It's sounding like the MWO Mechlab will be an exact clone of the MW4 Mech Lab which I absolutely hated.

http://www.thatgamer.../04/MW4-SS1.jpg

P.S. What the hell do we have if we dont get clan mechs?

MWO will suck without clan varients.

you will not know for 100% certainty what MWO mechlab will be until it is in our hands as players. Speculation is folly at this point. From what I gather, its gonna be NOTHING like MW4 mech lab, especially since they said its gonna be almost as big as MECH COMBAT. MW4 mechlab wasnt that big.

take a rest kage, you seem to need it

BUT, i do also hate hard points. BUT, i recall something similar in MW3 iirc

[Rogue Jedi]

i have played some of the previous games MechWarrior 3 & 4 as well as MechCommander 1 & 2, with regard to the weapons ans upgrade system I thought that MW3 and MC2 both had bad systems.
in MW3 each component of each mech had the same number of available slots if I remember correctly (it was at least 10 years ago i last played it) 12, beam weapons took up comparatively few slots but usually required fitting extra heat-sinks which used up both a ton of weight and a slot each. armor was available in 2 types standard, which used up no internal slots, and fero fiber, which was lighter but took up internal slots. as all mechs had the same number of slots it was always worth fitting fiber armor to light and medium mechs and most heavy Mechs, but when you got to the assault Mechs they had to compromise
MC2 had a similar system except you just filled all the slots not even weight to worry about.

MW4 had a better system, with hardpoints for Beam, Ballistic (standard gun type weapons) and missile, as well as all purpose omni hardpoints, and the overall amount of weapons limited by tonnage, however this also had disadvantages, the Balistic weapons (except Machine gun) were too heavy to mount on most light mechs, and certain weapons were far more effective for the weight and heat output than they should have been, who would use 2 slots for a Large Laser when a Medium laser takes up one slot, does about half the damage and weighs only a quarter as much.

a hybrid of the two systems seems to be what they are suggesting you have a limited number of hardpoints and slots for each location as well as the weight limit