90 replies to this topic

[Vexgrave Lars]

Orzorn, on 18 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Personally, I'm very glad for this system. It removes the variable sized hardpoints of Mechwarrior 4 in favor of having a one-size-fits-all hardpoint system. This pretty much eliminates boats, except for canon boats. So you can't do what was mentioned and have an Atlas with 10 medium lasers, since you will ONLY ever have 4 hardpoints (or potentially a few more, if they add hardpoints that are not used within the normal variant, which is totally a possibility, and something I hope they will explore).

Edit: However, I do think it has potential to hurt mechs that only mount one weapon type. I mean, are 3 large lasers ever going to be better than the 3 PPCs of an Awesome? Less range and less damage...perhaps they will balance it out with recycle times.

The part wedon't know for sure is will they give more hard points to certain mechs than they need. Maybe an AWESOME will have a couple extra unused EHPs. But from what I read, its by the chassis. So maybe an AWESOME won't be so awesome when it comes down to those who want to mod their mech.

[wwiiogre]

Garth just answered the $64 question

chris

[JadeTimberwolf]

CapperDeluxe, on 18 April 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

that would be exactly like Mechwarrior 4, and it leads to some ugly configurations. For instance in my question near the top of the Q&A the scenario of the 10 medium laser Awesome. That just wouldn't be an Awesome anymore, but an overweight Blackhawk/Nova or something.

That is one way to look at it but allowing for such combinations as long as both tonnage and crit point requirements are met it is allowed within the rules. Lets use the Timberwolf for example the Prime has the following weapon combinations. LL 0, LA 2, LT 2, CT 1, HD 0, RT 2, RA 2, RL 0, while the S has the following combinations, LL 0, LA 1, LT 3, CT 0, HD 0, RT 4, RA 2, RL 0. Or the Catapult, the CPLT-C1 LL 0, LA 1, LT 1, CT 2, HD 0, RT 1, RA 0, RL 0 vs the CPLT-H2 LL 0, LA 2, LT 2, CT 2, HD 0, RT 2, RA 3, RL 0

Just an example of why I would prefer Paul to be right.

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 18 April 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

wwiiogre, on 18 April 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Garth just answered the $64 question

chris

A link would be good
http://mwomercs.com/...ab/page__st__40

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 18 April 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[Sprouticus]

One point.

There is nothing to stop PGI from giving a mech extra unused mount points. For instance, give a mech which has 1 LL and 1 AC5 in the arm 2 energy & 1 Ballistic MP's. The you could replace the LL with 2 ML.

They could do this for lots of reasons. The primary one I can think of is to make a variant or mech that is not optimal (bad geometry, underused because the default mount points prove to be horrible) and make it desirable.

Im not saying they WILL do this, just that they COULD do it. It would fit the model they developed and also make Paul's exmaple make sense.

[EDMW CSN]

JadeTimberwolf, on 18 April 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

That is one way to look at it but allowing for such combinations as long as both tonnage and crit point requirements are met it is allowed within the rules. Lets use the Timberwolf for example the Prime has the following weapon combinations. LL 0, LA 2, LT 1, CT 1, HD 0, RT 2, RA 2, RL 0, while the S has the following combinations, LL 0, LA 1, LT 2, CT 0, HD 0, RT 3, RA 1, RL 0. Just an example of why I would prefer Paul to be right.

Omnis could be handled differently. Maybe good old CBT style ?

[wwiiogre]

http://mwomercs.com/...ab/page__st__40

there you go

chris

[Hartsblade]

Looking at the MECH Lab description from the Original post, I still think folks have Hardpoints and Crit Space confused...

InnerSphereNews, on 04 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Case Study 1 – Swapping out Weapons

Let’s assume that the player want to configure a new weapon layout for the McMech above. We see that the BattleMech is a 75 ton BattleMech and is currently maxed out in terms of available weight.

The first thing the player does is select a location. In this case it will be the BattleMech’s left arm. You will notice that upon doing so, a list of all items associated with the McMech’s left arm is displayed.

The key items displayed that cannot be modified in any way are the top three items; the shoulder, the upper arm actuator and the lower arm actuator. Those systems must remain in place for the appendage to work correctly.

In the diagram, we can see that the left arm of the McMech has a Large Laser equipped. The Large Laser takes up two critical slots on the McMech’s arm as shown by the two blue blocks. (Please note, the graphics indicated here are for demonstration purposes only… duh). If we were to examine the properties of the Large Laser, we would find that the weapon system weighs five tons.

Let’s have the player remove the Large Laser and replace it with some other weapons.

When the player selects the Large Laser, as list of available replacement parts appears. In this case they are the; Small Laser, Medium Laser and the PPC.

The player’s inventory is brought on screen at this time as well so they can pull items from their inventory that may or may not be displayed in the possible replacement part list.

You will notice that the possible replacement parts are colour coded. In this example, the green items indicate that they will fit into the slot occupied by the Large Laser, and they are within tonnage limits for the BattleMech, and lastly that the player has one of the items in their inventory. Items that are listed in red indicate that the item exceeds space/tonnage limitations or that the player does not currently own one of the items, or a combination thereof. In this case, the PPC both weighs too much and exceeds space limitations.

As the player drags the Large Laser off the Hardpoint, two things happen. First, the available space after removing the Large Laser is revealed.

Next, the overall tonnage of the BattleMech updates to indicate that there is room for additional weight.

The stats of a Large Laser are five tons, two critical slots, energy weapon. We can put in its place, any energy weapon(s) that stay within the maximum weight and space threshold.

Both the Medium Laser and Small Laser take up one critical slot and weigh one ton and ½ ton respectively. This means both systems are viable to be put into the space provided. For this demonstration, let’s have the player put two Medium Lasers in the available spaces.


As the player adds the Medium Lasers, you will see them drop into the applicable slots and the tonnage of the BattleMech update. Once the player is satisfied with their weapon layout, they simply save their configuration and are set to go.

In the above example we see the 'mechs arm has:

1 Hardpoint with 2 Critical spaces
1 Large laser fills the 1 Hardpoint and both of it's 2 crit spaces

After removing the Large laser we now have:

1 empty Hardpoint with 2 crit spaces
no weapons

In the end we have assign new weapons to the arm, filling the hardpoint:

1 Hardpoint with 2 crit spaces
2 Medium lasers filling 1 crit space each

This suggests that the number of weapons that can be mounted is not determined by the number of hardpoints in a location, but the number of available crit spaces in each hard point and the number of crit spaces used by each weapon.

So we have an example of 1 weapon being replaced by 2 weapons in a single hardpoint.

Edited by Hartsblade, 18 April 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[JadeTimberwolf]

[EDMW]CSN, on 18 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Omnis could be handled differently. Maybe good old CBT style ?

A few posts happened while I was in the process of adding a non-omni that has a similar varient setup namely the Catapult. My point is that in the the concept of doing as the devs said in the FAQ in staying true to TT adding in that only x weapons can fit into X location doesn't do that.

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 18 April 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

1. There is a critical slot system. For example, the arm has 12 critical slots, of which 3 are taken by the actuators and the shoulder joint, leaving 9 free critical slots. If I recall Mechwarrior 2 Mercs correctly, the side torsos have 12 free critical slots each, the centre torso and legs have 2 each and the head has one free critical slot. This is without Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, XL engines etc.
2. There is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE hardpoint system. For example, the Swayback has at least 2 energy hardpoints in each arm, and at least 1 ballistics hardpoint in the right torso.

Let me stress that the hardpoint system is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from the critical slot system.

Now, we look at weapons. All weapons take up exactly one hardpoint each, but the number of critical slots it takes up varies. PPCs will take up 3 critical slots. If I recall correctly, Gauss rifles take up 8 critical slots, in their prototype form (the later forms can't enter the game yet due to the timeframe). Medium lasers take up 1 slot each, and large lasers take up 2 slots each.

So for example...

If your right arm has, say, 9 free critical slots, but possesses 4 energy hardpoints you can:

1. Mount 3 PPCs.
2. Mount 4 Large Lasers.
3. Mount 4 Medium Lasers.
+ Subject to weight limitations of course.

You can't mount a 4th PPC because even though you have enough beam hardpoints, you do not have enough free critical slots. You cannot mount beyond 4 medium lasers, or even add a small laser to an arm with 4 Large Lasers, because you've run out of beam hardpoints, even though you have critical slots left.

To complicate matters, if your 9 critical arm has 1 ballistic and 2 beam hardpoints you can mount:

1. 1 Prototype Gauss Rifle(8), 1 Medium Laser(1) (out of criticals to add more)
2. 1 PPC(3), 1 Large Laser(2) and an AC/5(4) (Out of critical slots to add more)
3. 2 PPC(3), an AC/2(1) and 2 heat sinks.

In other words, weapons are limited on loading on 'Mechs by three factors:

1. Weight. Exceed total weight allowable, you can't mount it.
2. Critical slots. No funny business on mounting 2 prototype Gauss rifles on the same arm.
3. Hardpoints. No mounting of 9 medium lasers on the same arm, unlike what was the case in MechWarrior II Mercs.

And weapons are limited on firing by 'Mechs by three factors:

1. Heat dissipation. - Load more heat sinks, or use less energy weapons to overcome.
2. Total ammunition. - Load more ammunition to overcome.
3. Recharge/reload time. - Load more weapons to overcome.

The confusion here is likely because MechWarrior 4 combined the weapon type and critical slots into a single "critical slot type" system. But MWO will have a system where weapon types are considered separately from critical slots. The MWO MechLab is NOT a MW4 MechLab.

**EDIT BELOW THIS LINE**

The current MechLab system deals with the following problems from previous games:

1. Boating

There are too many free criticals, and no restriction on how to allocate them other than firing restrictions and weight restrictions, in MW2-type MechLabs. Therefore, we had an issue with boating, where people could happily load an obscene number of medium lasers and heat sinks into the head, centre torso, legs and side torsos. Boating is not possible in this MechLab iteration because of the hardpoint limitation. So, if you could only mount 2 energy weapons in that arm, and had enough tonnage, you would rather mount two PPCs than 2 Medium lasers, from a firepower point of view, where if you had only critical slot limitations, many people would rather mount 6 Medium lasers instead.

2. Identical 'Mechs

Also, by allocating type hardpoints accordingly, it keeps 'Mechs differentiated. Nobody could use a Catapult as a Gausszilla in MWO because it only possesses Beam and Missile hardpoints. Without a weapon type limitation, the 'Mech with the greatest free tonnage of its tonnage class is The Best Mech of its class (since it can mount the greatest amount of armour/heat sinks/weapons/ammo), which would be annoying since we would see only a few 'Mechs in action. With this in, if you want to use missiles a lot, you have to use a Catapult, or Archer, or Jenner. It gives the 'Mechs character - indeed, a mix of weapons capabilities is in itself a character, for example in the case of Centurions, which can mount a little bit of every kind of weapon. This can prove to be tactically useful as well. For example, you will know that if you spot an enemy lance full of Catapults and one Commando, that if you don't kill the Commando quick, he'll probably NARC you and you end up demolished by a missile rain. And if you spot an Awesome, he'll only have beam weapons, so you should send your flamer squad after him to prevent him from ever daring to fire.

An example of this The Best Mech problem in previous games lies especially with the Timber Wolf, though this timeframe doesn't include its entry... yet. Now Urbie lovers have a bit of a spot in the sun... since there's likely few other Light mechs which can mount ballistics - most Lights have only beam and missile hardpoints.

3. OmniMechs

Omni hardpoints will give certain 'Mechs flexibility to mount weapons of any type in that slot, giving them a distinct tactical advantage separate from the advantage of them usually possessing more advanced technology by the way of engine/armour types. However, there's no need to necessarily use Omni hardpoints, if the loadout you have in mind is achievable by a 'Mech with the correct mix of hardpoints.

4. Equipment

You'll have a reason to mount advanced equipment over simply weapons, because you may run out of weapons hardpoints and still have free tonnage and critical slots. On 'Mechs like the Battlemaster and Raven, the devs may want to intentionally limit the number of hardpoints available so that they'll be used in the role they were meant to be used in, rather than being abused as combat heavy Mechs.

===

For its inception it is pure conjecture at this point, but I believe the devs will be looking at every single SARNA variant, and creating hardpoints such that 'Mechs will possess the minimum number of hardpoints necessary such that every single official variant can be created ingame. They may even set these variants as presets which players can review to get a feel of what the 'Mech was intended to do. MW4 had the problem of having too many typed criticals, allowing people to make MLAS boats out of Nova Cats, Sunders and projectile boats out of Daishis. By heavily restricting hardpoints, players will be forced to customise within a narrow acceptable margin that still allows room for creativity, but not so much that boating can be done, and not so much so that capable commanders can still guess at what a given enemy 'Mech will intend to do.

Plagiarized for ease of use.

[MaddMaxx]

The answer is in the Link below.

http://mwomercs.com/...ab/page__st__40

or the Post above... LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 18 April 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[Evex]

Wow I was closer to the mechlab then I had thought with the matapult design of mine. For those who can't understand lengthy explanations let me explain it using the matapult, as an example. These designs only replace weapons and nothing else, so the rest is stock CPLT-C1 Catapult.

The matapult is designed off the frame of a CPLT-C1 Catapult which has

1x LRM-15 in the left arm
1x LRM-15 in the right arm
1x medium laser in the right torso
2x medium laser in the center torso
1x medium laser in the left torso

This gives the Catapult C1

4x beam hard points and 2x missile hard points.

Now the matapult weapons are

1x LRM-15 in the left arm
1x LRM-15 in the right arm
1x medium laser in the right torso
2x medium pulse laser in the center torso
1x medium laser in the left torso

this uses up all the hard points, but leaves 4 tons free and still have critical slots in some places. Now lets take a look at a variation of this design.

1x LRM-15 in the left arm
1x LRM-15 in the right arm
1x medium laser in the right torso
1x large laser in the center torso
1x medium laser in the left torso

this version has 3 tons left over but also has one energy hardpoint left. In order to fit the large lase I had to remove the two medium lasers in the center torso, which freed up two critical slot. This allowed me to fit in the large laser critical space wise, but the large laser only takes one energy hardpoint. This leaves one energy hard point free, but no space in the center torso to put another energy weapon.

[Aegis Kleais]

Though PGI didn't state whether they'd 1:1 it, 1T of armor gives 16pts to distribute, but armor just uses up tonnage on a location, not critical space, right?

[UncleKulikov]

Hard points are independent of weapon critical slots.

Hard points are based on the chassis' default weapon loadouts, an Awesome would have 4 energy hardpoints only, from my understanding.

[Aegis Kleais]

Right. Think of them has HOOKUPS based on WEAPON TYPES.

If a chassis variant has 2 energy and 1 ballistic weapon, it can be seen as having (at least) 2 energy hookups and 1 ballistic hookup (hardpoints). Like you said, hardpoints and critical space are independent of one another.

The items you equip into those hookups take up slots, and each section has X amount of slots (critical space) Taking 1-2 smaller energy would allow for more crit slot ballistics, but only 1, since there is just 1 hookup.

On top of that, there is a maximum tonnage that needs to be respected as well. At least, this is how I understand it.

When you add armor to an area, you don't use up critical space, but you do add tonnage to it.

[syngyne]

Hartsblade, on 18 April 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Looking at the MECH Lab description from the Original post, I still think folks have Hardpoints and Crit Space confused...

1 Hardpoint with 2 Critical spaces
1 Large laser fills the 1 Hardpoint and both of it's 2 crit spaces

This is the confusion people are still having. Hard points do not have specific crits assigned to them. If you have, say, 4 open criticals in a location, and that location has a two ballistic hardpoints and one energy hardpoint, you could stick a single PPC in there (3 crits/1 energy hardpoint), or an AC/5 (4 crits/1 ballistic hardpoint), or two machineguns (2 crits/2 ballistic hardpoints). However, you could not stick two medlasers there, because while you have the crit space, you don't have enough energy hardpoints. You could, however, put the two machineguns and the one medlaser (3 crits/1 energy hardpoint, 2 ballistic hardpoints).

UncleKulikov, on 18 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Hard points are based on the chassis' default weapon loadouts, an Awesome would have 4 energy hardpoints only, from my understanding.

There's a post floating around here where a dev stated that some chassis may actually have extra hardpoints that aren't currently being used by the base config, so hopefully an Awesome wouldn't be quite as limited.

Edited by syngyne, 18 April 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I have the question that will solve this problem.

Paul, David, Garth, Staff, my question to you is "Can you remove the PPC from the right arm of a Sample Mech and replace it with 2 medium Lasers (assuming there were no other weapon slots on that arm)?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 April 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[William Petersen]

Vexgrave Lars, on 18 April 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

3. OmniMechs

Omni hardpoints will give certain 'Mechs flexibility to mount weapons of any type in that slot, giving them a distinct tactical advantage separate from the advantage of them usually possessing more advanced technology by the way of engine/armour types. However, there's no need to necessarily use Omni hardpoints, if the loadout you have in mind is achievable by a 'Mech with the correct mix of hardpoints.

4. Equipment

You'll have a reason to mount advanced equipment over simply weapons, because you may run out of weapons hardpoints and still have free tonnage and critical slots. On 'Mechs like the Battlemaster and Raven, the devs may want to intentionally limit the number of hardpoints available so that they'll be used in the role they were meant to be used in, rather than being abused as combat heavy Mechs.

I don't really know how they can do Omnis and really have them feel like omnis without opening the Boat-Gates so-to-speak. The idea of omni hard points kind of defeats the purpose of hard points in the first place, but on the other hand, how else do you implement it and still have "omnimech" mean something.

I think someone missed the Fed Sun RVN-2X. It pretty much turns the Rave into a Heavy (light) Combat Mech; 5/8, 87% armour, LLas, SRM-6, 2 MLas. <.<

Prosperity Park, on 18 April 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

I have the question that will solve this problem.

Paul, David, Garth, Staff, my question to you is "Can you remove the PPC from the right arm of a Sample Mech and replace it with 2 medium Lasers (assuming there were no other weapon slots on that arm)?

That won't necessarily answer anything, because we don't know if the Awesome in question might have a second, unused energy hard point on the right arm.

A more precise phrasing would be: If a Mech has a single energy hard point in a particular location which presently contains a PPC, can one remove that PPC and replace it with 2 MLas in that particular location with the single energy hard point?

Edited by William Petersen, 18 April 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[zorak ramone]

Vexgrave Lars, on 18 April 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

So the anser was as follows and confirmed as "nearly dead on" by Garth
"1. There is a critical slot system. For example, the arm has 12 critical slots, of which 3 are taken by the actuators and the shoulder joint, leaving 9 free critical slots. If I recall Mechwarrior 2 Mercs correctly, the side torsos have 12 free critical slots each, the centre torso and legs have 2 each and the head has one free critical slot. This is without Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, XL engines etc.
2. There is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE hardpoint system. For example, the Swayback has at least 2 energy hardpoints in each arm, and at least 1 ballistics hardpoint in the right torso.

Let me stress that the hardpoint system is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from the critical slot system.

.....

So for example...

If your right arm has, say, 9 free critical slots, but possesses 4 energy hardpoints you can:

1. Mount 3 PPCs.
2. Mount 4 Large Lasers.
3. Mount 4 Medium Lasers.
+ Subject to weight limitations of course.

You can't mount a 4th PPC because even though you have enough beam hardpoints, you do not have enough free critical slots. You cannot mount beyond 4 medium lasers, or even add a small laser to an arm with 4 Large Lasers, because you've run out of beam hardpoints, even though you have critical slots left.

.....

1. Weight. Exceed total weight allowable, you can't mount it.
2. Critical slots. No funny business on mounting 2 prototype Gauss rifles on the same arm.
3. Hardpoints. No mounting of 9 medium lasers on the same arm, unlike what was the case in MechWarrior II Mercs.

And weapons are limited on firing by 'Mechs by three factors:

So what I'm gathering here is that hardpoints determine the number of a type of weapon (energy, balistic, or missle) you can mount in a location, but not its size. So, theoretically, 4 balistic hardpoints could mount 4xAC2 or 4xAC20 if the critical space and tonnage were available (unlikely in the case of 4xAC20).

I think that while this system is a good start, I still think its lacking something. For example, take the Hunckback:

Stock huncback has 2xML (one in each arm), 1xAC20 in the RT, and 1xSL in the head. Stripped down, it looks like this:
-LA: 1 energy hardpoint, 8 critical space
-RA: 1 energy hardpoint, 8 critical space
-H: 1 energy hardpoint, 1 critical space
-RT: 1 balistic hardpoint, 12 critical space
-Available tonnage: 18.5 tons (2xML = 2 tons, 1xAC20+2xammo = 16 tons, 1xSL = 0.5 tons)

Given the system described in the Q&A and the OP of this thread, what's to stop me from doing this:
-LA: 1xPPC (7 tons, 3 crits)
-RA: 1xPPC (7 tons, 3 crits)
-RT: 4xHS (4 tons, 4 crits)

The stock HBK-4G has 13 HS, bringing this variant up to 17 HS. Thats just 3 short for perfect heat efficiency using the PPC (incidentally, the Awesome is just 3 HS short of using its PPCs at perfect efficiency.

For even more ridiculousness, lets see what the Dragon can do:
-RA: 1 balistic hardpoint, 10 critical space
-LA: 1 energy hardpoint, 8 critical space
-LT: 1 energy hardpoint, 12 critical space
-CT: 1 missle hardpoint, 2 critical space
-Available tonnage: 19 tons (2xML = 2 tons, AC5+2xammo = 10 tons, LRM10+2xammo = 7 tons)

So basically, the dragon can do everything the Hunckback can, minus the SL (AC20 + 2xML, 2xPPC), but it has the same armor (10 tons) and runs faster (85kph vs 64kph). Why would you ever use the hunchback and what makes it different from the Dragon other than being objectively inferior?

If you do the same thought experiments, you can turn the Atlas into a mech with 2xPPC and a LRM20 with perfect or almost perfect heat efficiency, or into a 2xLRM20 mech with no heavy AC.

I think that in order to preserve the unique identity and character of mechs, it is necessary not only to limit the number of weapons but the size of those weapons. MW4 got it half right: there were size restrictions, but not weapon number restrictions. If you don't regulate the size of weapons per hardpoint, then, as you can see by the Dragon vs Hunchback example, you not only fail to preserve what makes different mechs unique, you also will make some mechs obselete very fast. Then we start to converge on MW2/3 (and to a lesser extent, MW4) where only a few mechs with a few optimized configurations are used.

[Felicitatem Parco]

William Petersen, on 18 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

A more precise phrasing would be: If a Mech has a single energy hard point in a particular location which presently contains a PPC, can one remove that PPC and replace it with 2 MLas in that particular location with the single energy hard point?

You are right, and my post has since edited to this effect.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 April 2012 - 02:09 PM.