So, this whole bug with LRMs coming down at insanely nasty 90 degree angles got me thinking about the Artemis, and how it works in the TT rules, hear me out a second..
This page (copypastatoawiki) claims "and the firing unit must have line of sight to its target, indirectly fired LRM receives no increase in accuracy." Going to focus on those words for a moment.
One, it seems to me as though Artemis is not currently following the rules, not 100% sure of this.. but to me it appears like its working at all times, instead of when the user has a direct line of sight to the target.
Two, the "nasty" angle bug, got me thinking about another missile launcher with a crazy angle of impact, the FGM-148 Javelin
The Javelin system is a fire and forget launcher that locks a target within line of sight.. well, here, let me add another link, so you can see what I am saying
As its explained, it sounds much like Artemis should act, no? Line of sight to target, increasing accuracy, 90 degree angle of impact into the enemies less protected topside.
The drawback, of course, is that if you can see a target, it can see you.
I'd propose making the Artemis system work more like the Javelin launcher.. as such, when a LRM boat is firing indirect fire with the use of forward scouts, the missiles should follow a normal, standard arc, able to be easily dodged through use of cover and such, however, if the LRM boat risks direct line of sight to its target, Artemis targeting should then kick in, allowing for a much more accurate and powerful arcing fire, I do understand the tabletop simply states "35% accuracy" but it doesn't specify how it actually effects the missiles themselves.
Just an idea from a now rambling newbie. I'll go hide under my blanket now =3
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Tt Artemis Iv
Started by NikitaCrocuta, Nov 07 2012 09:38 PM
5 replies to this topic
#2
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- LocationCircinus
Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:46 PM
You are correct, the rules are indeed true that an Artemis LRM can not fire on a target that the Mech doesn't have Line of Sight for. They are, in essence, a system that makes an LRM into a giant SSRM, the trade-off being 35% improved accuracy. Only normal LRM's (with someone 'r' locking with a scout 'free' C3 or future inclusion of C3 or C3i) or Narc/Tag's targets should have the advantage of firing at someone not within LOS, for decreased accuracy.
This would help differentiate the trade off between using both.
I think the following changes would make more sense:
This would help differentiate the trade off between using both.
I think the following changes would make more sense:
- LRM + Artemis System = Requires Direct LOS 'r' lock (Missiles fail to fire if target not within LOS) for 35% improved accuracy. Firing the system indirectly (no target selected) receives no accuracy bonus, but do fly in a straighter arc towards wherever you were shooting.
- SRM + Artemis System = Give these a semi-guided bonus by allowing the user to direct the missiles where you aim with 35% increased accuracy
- LRM's with utilizing Scout C3 'r' lock (or future equip-able C3 or C3i) can hit targets not within LOS. Indirect fire occurs the same way as LRM + Artemis (no bonus) straighter arc path, but receive NARC/TAG bonuses listed below.
- LRM + NARC or TAG = Can target with no LOS with 'r' lock. Indirect fire automatically checks for any closest target that is NARC/TAG and automatically seeks (as they are supposed to be able to do)
- SRM + NARC or TAG = Indirect Fire checks for closed target that is NARC/TAG and automatically seeks (I think this feature for both LRM/SRM would have to be something the user can turn on/off by a key)
Edited by General Taskeen, 07 November 2012 - 09:59 PM.
#3
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- 16 posts
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:49 PM
Except a Javelin cannot read terrain and hits it easily.
It should have a max height from where it is shot... About a few hundred meters above your mech, and it becomes extremely obvious where your mech is located. Then it flies forward and towards the target, hitting any obstacles that's covering it... Not fly above the target and rain down.
This way, you use it to shoot from behind cover, to a target in the open.
NOT: Using it to shoot mechs behind cover.
A normal LRM means shooting missiles in front of you, having them pop out slowly and then speed up and fly towards a locked on target, WITHOUT reading terrain...
Missiles having the ability to dodge terrain makes LRM too powerful...
If anything, Long Range Missiles as in large amounts of them, are as dumb as guided rockets from Rocket Vehicles, it takes the latest coordinates of the mech and tries to fly into it, not follow it, it constantly changes direction to a 'new coordinate', hence when a person shuts down, the rockets and the shooter will lose sight and the rockets fail to accurately hit them.
If you really want smart missiles, make them actual missile launchers that fires one missile at a time, having bigger warhead, but much slower and easily shot down by AMS. Like a EMP Missile that disables a mech for 1~3 seconds. These missiles are like 2x bigger than your standard ones and can be hidden in a volley of missiles.
Artemis needs a simple range rule:
If the target is more than 600M away, the 'feedback' on each missile delays and as such it cannot accurately home into the target location if the target is moving faster than 60kph.
Since the Missile feeds from the shooter's wireless frequency, it is also possible to interfere with the system with special devices maybe?
ECM smoke?
Also, a Javelin wasn't invented to avoid obstacles to hit a target, it was designed to hit Heavily Armored Tanks from the topside, but it requires the user to scan the target long enough to launch it beforehand.
Because RPGs can't dent a composite armor in the front, they use Javelins to destroy a tank from the top (the top armor being thin and is the weakest point).
It should have a max height from where it is shot... About a few hundred meters above your mech, and it becomes extremely obvious where your mech is located. Then it flies forward and towards the target, hitting any obstacles that's covering it... Not fly above the target and rain down.
This way, you use it to shoot from behind cover, to a target in the open.
NOT: Using it to shoot mechs behind cover.
A normal LRM means shooting missiles in front of you, having them pop out slowly and then speed up and fly towards a locked on target, WITHOUT reading terrain...
Missiles having the ability to dodge terrain makes LRM too powerful...
If anything, Long Range Missiles as in large amounts of them, are as dumb as guided rockets from Rocket Vehicles, it takes the latest coordinates of the mech and tries to fly into it, not follow it, it constantly changes direction to a 'new coordinate', hence when a person shuts down, the rockets and the shooter will lose sight and the rockets fail to accurately hit them.
If you really want smart missiles, make them actual missile launchers that fires one missile at a time, having bigger warhead, but much slower and easily shot down by AMS. Like a EMP Missile that disables a mech for 1~3 seconds. These missiles are like 2x bigger than your standard ones and can be hidden in a volley of missiles.
General Taskeen, on 07 November 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:
You are correct, the rules are indeed true that an Artemis LRM can not fire on a target that the Mech doesn't have Line of Sight for. They are, in essence, a system that makes an LRM into a giant SSRM, the trade-off being 35% improved accuracy. Only normal LRM's (with someone 'r' locking with a scout 'free' C3 or future inclusion of C3 or C3i) or Narc/Tag's targets should have the advantage of firing at someone not within LOS, for decreased accuracy.
This would help differentiate the trade off between using both.
I think the following changes would make more sense:
This would help differentiate the trade off between using both.
I think the following changes would make more sense:
- LRM + Artemis System = Requires Direct LOS 'r' lock (Missiles fail to fire if target not within LOS) for 35% improved accuracy. Firing the system indirectly (no target selected) receives no accuracy bonus, but do fly in a straighter arc towards wherever you were shooting.
- SRM + Artemis System = Give these a semi-guided bonus by allowing the user to direct the missiles where you aim with 35% increased accuracy
- LRM's with utilizing Scout C3 'r' lock (or future equip-able C3 or C3i) can hit targets not within LOS. Indirect fire occurs the same way as LRM + Artemis (no bonus) straighter arc path, but receive NARC/TAG bonuses listed below.
- LRM + NARC or TAG = Can target with no LOS with 'r' lock. Indirect fire automatically checks for any closest target that is NARC/TAG and automatically seeks (as they are supposed to be able to do)
- SRM + NARC or TAG = Indirect Fire checks for closed target that is NARC/TAG and automatically seeks (I think this feature for both LRM/SRM would have to be something the user can turn on/off by a key)
Artemis needs a simple range rule:
If the target is more than 600M away, the 'feedback' on each missile delays and as such it cannot accurately home into the target location if the target is moving faster than 60kph.
Since the Missile feeds from the shooter's wireless frequency, it is also possible to interfere with the system with special devices maybe?
ECM smoke?
Also, a Javelin wasn't invented to avoid obstacles to hit a target, it was designed to hit Heavily Armored Tanks from the topside, but it requires the user to scan the target long enough to launch it beforehand.
Because RPGs can't dent a composite armor in the front, they use Javelins to destroy a tank from the top (the top armor being thin and is the weakest point).
Edited by KaiserX, 07 November 2012 - 10:17 PM.
#4
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- 13 posts
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:00 PM
Maybe my words were a bit jumbled and unclear, I wasn't implying the missiles shouldn't ever hit terrain, I was just pointing at a real life weapon that sounded rather similar to the Artemis system in an attempt to perhaps inspire the dev team with ideas as to how to implement the system, that being a targeting system that kicks in when in direct line of sight (aka, nothing in the way of you looking at the target, such as a hill or building) since at the moment, it doesn't seem to work as Artemis is explained above and more like a targeting improvement from anywhere at all.
(p.s. I wish I could sound like the General up there when trying to explain it)
(p.s. I wish I could sound like the General up there when trying to explain it)
Edited by NikitaCrocuta, 07 November 2012 - 10:02 PM.
#5
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- 4 posts
Rookie
Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:03 PM
KaiserX, on 07 November 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:
Missiles having the ability to dodge terrain makes LRM too powerful...
As a Jenner pilot I agree with this statement wholeheartedly
Nikita I think you're idea is a step in the right direction for Artemis. Good thinking
#6
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- 13 posts
Member
Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:23 PM
KaiserX, I really love your art project there, and it explains what you are afraid of, but that is not what I am suggesting at all, and is not how a javelin works anyway, and this isn't a thread devoted to how the missiles are flying right now.
However I will try to clarify how the Javelin system works.
The shooter in your first diagram could not have locked onto the target in the first place, because there are two buildings in the way of visual identification. If there was no buildings or other terrain in the way, then yes, that is the path of the missile. I will repeat this just to be clear.. The system can fire only at targets in direct line of sight.
However I will try to clarify how the Javelin system works.
The shooter in your first diagram could not have locked onto the target in the first place, because there are two buildings in the way of visual identification. If there was no buildings or other terrain in the way, then yes, that is the path of the missile. I will repeat this just to be clear.. The system can fire only at targets in direct line of sight.
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