16 replies to this topic

[Allekatrase]

Sorry, but I have to post this. I've seen too many comments like "why are they ruining this game for the real players who play in groups?" or "If you wanted to win you'd be in a premade." and "I don't want to play with puggers, they ruin my gaming experience!"

These kinds of comments are not okay. If you can't figure out why you need to reevaluate yourself. People who play in PuGs are not lesser people or even necessarily lesser players. There are plenty of skilled people playing in PuGs. The fact that you joined a premade does not automatically make you a bettter player. It may make you more effective because you have better coordination, but it doesn't make you, individually, better.

I know, they limited your group sizes. I feel your pain. I hate it when a game doesn't support all of my friends playing on a team. I may even agree that the 4 man group limit may not have been the best move at this point without the other steps they proposed and that it wasn't even implemented particularly well.

However, the attitudes that somehow people who play in PuGs have no place in this game or are lesser individuals is just not acceptable. The majority of players are players in PuG matches and it needs to be a fun game for them too. This doesn't mean they're better or more important than premades. Just have some respect and realize not everyone enjoys the same play style as you. Playing a premade and playing a PuG can be a completely different experience and one is not necessarily better than the other. It comes down to preference.

[Sarevos]

Lol my group consists entirely of people we know IRL so we tend to just have a lan party or skype while we pug. We decided to do that when we saw the pugstomping problem so we still have fun just the same and will have more once 8 mans can go against 8 mans

[Hoshi Toranaga]

Totally agree. Never look down on PUGs, yes there are those who mindlessly charge, but they are prolly newbies or mistake this game for a shooter.

I PUG myself sometimes for fun or to strengthen individual skill, as it takes a lot more individual skill to be successful in PUG games. So I have great respect for those who chose this lifestyle and I also try a lot to communicate with those who I feel are good players in PUG teams (and yes sometimes try to recruit them hehe).

The door however also swings both ways and I see often how we get bashed by PUGs for being "a-holes" to fight coordinated in a team based game. I think this is also not very fair of the PUGers and both sides need to start respecting each other. We are all Mechwarriors after all.

So lets shake hands, have good fights and fun whatever playstyle you chose.

[Allekatrase]

I agree, Terry, it definitely goes both ways. Honestly, the people complaining that premades ruin the game don't have an argument. The matches that involved premades before the patch was a small percentage. I am nowhere near the best player and I tend to play brawlers which makes things difficult in PuGs and I still have a 46% win rate without ever joining a premade. That's pretty close to the 50% you would expect.

[lsp]

I don't see the issue, other then not being able to play with all your buds. I dropped in my first group tonight, and we only lost 3 games out of like 4 hours of playing. And we're just lone wolfs. Not much being said in ts other then what your targeting and calling out mech grids basically.

Edited by lsp, 08 November 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Weiland]

I have been extending my hand to help PUGs since I stepped foot in this joint.

I do not speak ill about PUGs because of their choice to PUG. It's their choice to make. They have to deal with the consequences, however, of deciding to play a team-oriented game with other players while using limited communication. Again, their choice to make, whether they know what they're getting themselves into or not. Some make it, even.

What I DO, however, is ridicule PUGs (in general) that have no drive to become decent pilots, to learn to communicate (whether they use TS or not), to act as a teammate rather than an individual, and who would rather whine and QQ and throw a hiss-fit than approach their situation realistically and maturely.

I - and many like me - strive to assist anyone that wants to improve themselves and show a modicum of respect, but I specifically have no tolerance for those that would rather Leroy Jenkins with music in their headphones and act like they should be handed a casual win on a silver platter.

If PUGs want to PUG, they would be much better served if they could pilot worth a damn and knew how to operate as a team - as is, the mass majority of PUGs I see - and have recently been forced to group with - have neither the experience nor the apparent inclination to acquire it. Forcing Premades into smaller chunks and eliminating the occasional Premade vs. PUG has proven, as predicted, that the problem isn't as much the inclusion of TS and voice commo as it is the blatant lack of competence among most PUGs.

It is my experience that most of those "premade devils" that people cry about are like this.

I have never insulted an individual for being a PUG, nor ridiculed his/her choice for it. Nor have I suggested that premade is "the only way to go" - though I personally wouldn't ever go back to PUGing because I enjoy the social aspect of working and talking with other people.


TL;DR - Well, **** you, go read the post, you lazy piece of ****.

Edited by Weiland, 08 November 2012 - 01:50 AM.

[Insidious Johnson]

I still wish they'd implement my suggested battle type: No premades, each team is a free-for-all in a caged area they can't get out of. The two survivors from each "team" are released when all others are dead to have a cripple fight in the middle. Call it "Puggerdome". Make TK a game type to satisfy the bloodlust we all sometimes get when we get "that guy" on our team.

[Weiland]

Insidious Johnson, on 08 November 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

I still wish they'd implement my suggested battle type: No premades, each team is a free-for-all in a caged area they can't get out of. The two survivors from each "team" are released when all others are dead to have a cripple fight in the middle. Call it "Puggerdome". Make TK a game type to satisfy the bloodlust we all sometimes get when we get "that guy" on our team.

Alright, sure. Let the PUGs have their casual match-ups like that and then leave the real team warfare to the rest of us who want to actually, you know, team.

[Valore]

I think most people, who when they speak disparagingly about PUGs, are referring to those all of us find irritants. AFKers, blitzers, foul mouthed kids, and other kinds of unpleasant people.

Very few of us actually go out of our way to be unhelpful or hostile to PUGs. Sure there may be a few premades here and there who think its funny and go around doing that, but for the most part I believe they are a minority.


The number of douchey Premades is surely not more than the number of douchey pugs who call premades 'f***ing noobs' and the like when they lose.

Bottom line, report the unpleasant people, and try not to be one yourself. Whether you PUG or run a premade, that's not what determines if you're a moron or not.

[Weiland]

Valore, on 08 November 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

I think most people, who when they speak disparagingly about PUGs, are referring to those all of us find irritants. AFKers, blitzers, foul mouthed kids, and other kinds of unpleasant people.

Very few of us actually go out of our way to be unhelpful or hostile to PUGs. Sure there may be a few premades here and there who think its funny and go around doing that, but for the most part I believe they are a minority.


The number of douchey Premades is surely not more than the number of douchey pugs who call premades 'f***ing noobs' and the like when they lose.

Bottom line, report the unpleasant people, and try not to be one yourself. Whether you PUG or run a premade, that's not what determines if you're a moron or not.

Agreed all around. Less biting then I generally put it.

[xDark]

They really should have just skipped Phase 1 and went straight to Phase 2. I don't care about not being able to pugstomp anymore - what I miss is being able to play in a full group. 8-man groups were so much fun and was a very social experience, but now that groups are limited to 4 players, playing in a premade feels very unlively and dull. I now have to wait two weeks before I get that back which I can deal with, but I'm not too happy about it.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Weiland, on 08 November 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

...the problem isn't as much the inclusion of TS and voice commo as it is the blatant lack of competence among most PUGs.

I think this is because most of them are new players learning the game and the game forces them to do this in online matches. But we shouldn't get resentful about new players because without them the game will fold.

I also think we should be careful of thinking that teams on comms really have that much in the way of skill. This is actually a very, very simple game and the tactics required are not complicated. Let's face it, we're not exactly playing Ka-50 Black Shark, are we?

[Calmon]

I still don't get it. I play with my team so I'm a teamplayer. BUT I'm also play alone sometimes so I'm a PUG as well. Which team player is never playing alone? Its a minority. Everybody from my team played alone!

So nearly all teamplayers are PUGs as well. Do some of you forget this, ignore this? Don't get it.

[Bluescuba]

Allekatrase, on 08 November 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

I agree, Terry, it definitely goes both ways. Honestly, the people complaining that premades ruin the game don't have an argument. The matches that involved premades before the patch was a small percentage. I am nowhere near the best player and I tend to play brawlers which makes things difficult in PuGs and I still have a 46% win rate without ever joining a premade. That's pretty close to the 50% you would expect.

The problem is that this latest iteration of matchmaking is here because the pugs qq'd about being stomped by premades, which wasn't based on the facts. So the pugs continue to play the game the way they want and the premades are forced to break up and play with half a team that does not communicate or even play role warfare. This is the only reason premades complain... out of the 2 groups of players it is the premades who are being forced to change because of accusations that are not even true.

Premades have very little interest in playing pug groups as they are boring matches, what is fun about pugstomping 8-0 in 3 minutes?

[Allekatrase]

Bluescuba, on 08 November 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

The problem is that this latest iteration of matchmaking is here because the pugs qq'd about being stomped by premades, which wasn't based on the facts. So the pugs continue to play the game the way they want and the premades are forced to break up and play with half a team that does not communicate or even play role warfare. This is the only reason premades complain... out of the 2 groups of players it is the premades who are being forced to change because of accusations that are not even true.

Premades have very little interest in playing pug groups as they are boring matches, what is fun about pugstomping 8-0 in 3 minutes?

Actually, this iteration is here because the devs decided to put it here. They clearly should have data that proves that the ones whining about premades had no real argument. If they gave into whiners when they had the ability to collect data and even show that data to the community that would refute their claims then that's all on them.

If by some remote chance the data actually supported the whiners then it's a different matter entirely. But, even in this case it was a poor implementation as the current system doesn't favor matching groups against groups. All it does is limit group size, which isn't really the issue with premades. The issue is a well coordinated team against an uncoordinated team and the "solution" in this phase doesn't address that problem at all.

Either way, there's no reason to be insulting or condescending to someone who doesn't play the same way you do and I'm tired of the comments on both sides to that effect.

[Bluescuba]

Allekatrase, on 08 November 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

Actually, this iteration is here because the devs decided to put it here. They clearly should have data that proves that the ones whining about premades had no real argument. If they gave into whiners when they had the ability to collect data and even show that data to the community that would refute their claims then that's all on them.

If by some remote chance the data actually supported the whiners then it's a different matter entirely. But, even in this case it was a poor implementation as the current system doesn't favor matching groups against groups. All it does is limit group size, which isn't really the issue with premades. The issue is a well coordinated team against an uncoordinated team and the "solution" in this phase doesn't address that problem at all.

Either way, there's no reason to be insulting or condescending to someone who doesn't play the same way you do and I'm tired of the comments on both sides to that effect.

I think that PGI is more effected by perception than by data, and would be more inclined to knowingly bring in an iteration of matchmaking that would bring in some kudos from a large percentage of the player base (irrelivent of what the actual data shows). For PGI that is just good business sense, because they also provide a salve to the disenfranchised player base in the form of phase 2. Thus keeping the majority happy and the minority whilst unhappy threading water.

I do not recall being condescending to pugs, but rather simply calling out the reality that most do not communicate with the premade lances, and fail to use their mechs in the appropiate manner of its tactical role. Yes there are some pugs that both communicate and play role warfare but they are a very small minority.

[Obadiah333]

My issue isn't something personal with the puggers. In fact, it doesn't have anything to do with them directly. My issue is that PGI is caving to their (puggers) demands and I've been down that road with many, many games. The game I am going to use as an example though is WoW. Why? Because, foremost - it is one of the **** successful gaming franchises in history. Secondly, a lot of people have probably played this game and so will have some connection with it as an example.

WoW started off great. I played in the beginning when it first came out and left right before the first expansion came out (Burning Crusade). I came back to it with some friends when WoTLK came out, but quit again shortly before Cataclysm was implemented. I recently (last week) went back for a 10 day trial to check out the new expansion, Pandaria.

WoW has been RUINED by Blizzard caving to the demands of the casual gaming community (otherwise termed as puggers). Leveling was a joke. Grouping was a joke. All you did was que for random dungeons and run through them as fast as you could. You barely had time to loot. No one talked, there was no planning, no talking, no fun. It was run through as fast as you could and then do it again and again. The skill selection was dumbed down to near idiocy, limiting choices to a couple of things to keep it simple for the casual crowd. It was a total waste of time and I'll never be going back to that game.

You may be asking; what has WoW got to do with MWO? Well, let's talk about what happened in WoW to make it the total suckage it is today. #1. Devs listened to all the casual gamers who "wanted what everyone else had without putting in the time/effort." Items became easier to get, monsters easier to kill, dungeons easier to run, money easier to acquire, etc. When the game first was out, if you had epics (purple), you were the bomb. If you had a glowing brightwood staff, you were uber, elite and special. Last time I was on, that very staff was on sale in the AH for 9 gold. Yeah 9 gold.

I can't even tell the number of posts I've read about the free players whining that it was taking too long to grind out enough c-bills to earn their first mech. "100 matches, oh man, it took me 2 whole days to get the money for the mech I wanted." 2 whole ******* days! The humanity!! I remember grinding stone elementals for 2 weeks just to get 1 level, trying to save up money for my epic mount (at level 60). Now you can get a horse for like 10 gold at level 20. I could list hundreds of examples, but there is no need to beat a dead horse. You get the picture.

The Devs of MWO have already said that they are looking into making things "easier" for the free players. Why? Because the casual gaming market is where it's at. Every MMO out since WoW has caved to these casual players and has been ruined in the process. Yes, I know that they have to appeal to the mass market to succeed, but this game isn't like your average mmo. Why? Because the people that love this game are a fairly small niche group. We've been desperately waiting for a new mechwarrior game for 10 years and we'll do and put up with just about anything to play it.

What's the future hold for MWO? Well, if trends continue along the "give in to the casual players line", this game will fail. Why you ask? Because old school, long time gamers and fans of the franchise will begin to hate this game and will drop off, never to return. All you'll have left is the casual gamer locusts who will simply move on to the next game and then ruin it as well.

If you don't believe me, look at the history of the mmo games as they have come out and see where they are now. I won't list them here for you, but be assured that I've played most of the major new MMO's that have come out over the past 10 years. Sadly, I see this game following the same self-destructive path as the others.

I really hope that the F2P business model will mean a different way of doing things. I really hope the devs don't cave to the demands of the casual gamers who really don't give a damn about the game, they just want everything easy. I really hope that the old school gamers like me can learn to have patience and keep on with this game because we love the franchise and want to see it succeed. I really hope that the people who read this understand where I am coming from and agree with me.