118 replies to this topic

[Death0511]

Feel Free to Comment on This System. But I see this being alot better than things are now. It could be fairly close to their current system, but its ok. Thoughts??

Queue 1 Assault Queue, if Sum of team weight is greater than 640 (80*8 = all Awesome's)
Queue 2 Main Queue 1, If Sum of weight is greater than 501, but less than 639(Some Assault, Some Heavy, Some Medium, or All Heavy)
Queue 3 Main Queue 2, Sum of weight is greater than 401, but less than 500 (Mix of Heavy/Medium or All Dragons)
Queue 4 Medium Queue, if Sum of weight is greater than 280 but less than 400 (All Medium or Mix of Light < Med)
Queue 5 mostly light, if Sum of team weight = greater than 200, but less than 280 (35*8 = Mix of All Light Mechs or Ligh t> Mediums)
Queue 6 Commando Queue, if Sum of team weight is less than 200 (25*8 = all Commando)
Queue 7 = Pre-Made Queue If premade Group is greater than 7 members, find other group of 7 or 8(Any Config)
Queue 8, If premade = 4 members, Look for other 4 member team to make 8. (Any Config)
If premade is 5-6 members, fill group wil 2-3 PUGs or other group and Drop in Queue 7.
If Queue 8 is empty, Drop in Queue 7
If Queue 7 is Empty, Drop in Queue 1
If Queue 1 is Empty, Drop in Queue 2
If Queue 6 is empty, Drop in Queue 5
If Queue 5 is empty, Drop in Queue 4
If Queue 4 is empty, Drop in Queue 3
If Queue 3 is empty, Drop in Queue 2
If Queue 2 is Empty, Match Not Found, Re-Ready and Drop Again.

Thx
Death0511

Edited by Death0511, 08 November 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[tenderloving]

Cheatos, on 08 November 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

To the OP.

You most likely were not in the early stages of the closed beta. Back when there were no restrictions you sometimes would see an all assault drop. and more often than not they would lose because they were eaten alive by lights or fast capped. After a while people on thier own stopped playing assaults for more rounded performance mechs like medium and heavys for that purpose. Personally I have never thought the game should have gone the direction it should have in regards to matched teams because it limits the tactics one team can employ against another. I would very much like to see that one decision reversed and hopefully it will

This was also before matchmaking. We're not talking about random people being thrown together, we're talking about organized teams.

Obviously a lone Atlas will get destroyed by two Jenners. But will two coordinated Atlases lose to two Jenners? Hell no. The Jenners might eke out a win but they will be working a lot harder.

There is no scenario where a swarm of light mechs can take out an equal sized team of coordinated Atlases of equal skill level. The Atlases back each other up and blast the lights one at a time.

Winning in a light mech against an assault requires that the assault put himself at a disadvantage either intenionally or out of ignorance. You have to catch him alone, or trick him into chasing you, or just rely on him being distracted. In a competitive environment, the assault will throw his back to a wall and his teammates will protect him.

Add a handful of balancing mechs to this Assault team and now they have every potential weakness covered. With no tonnage restrictions, this will be the most varied team composition I can think of that is still safe:

1 Scout
1 Scout Hunter
2 Dual Gauss Mechs
4 Atlas

This team has no weaknesses. It can scout, it can take out a light threat, it can snipe, and it can rain missiles. Each Atlas can run LRM/Gauss and use their energy slots for ML/MPL on the off chance an enemy survives intact to get to brawling range. The focus target will have 8 Gauss and 80-120 LRMs coming its way.

If someone has a scenario where they, in a blind drop, can build a team that will successfully beat this team more than 50% of the time I would like to hear it.

Edited by tenderloving, 08 November 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[Tasorin]

One of the primary reasons there will be no weight class matching in the Phase 2 is due to the queue times Pre-mades would face to get a match against another team when there is no organized scrimmage. The only way PGI can deal with that in the short term is turn off weight class matchmaking until they can figure out how to code actual meaningful match making. This way the pre-made match maker just looks for another instance of a team in the active match queue and stuffs those two groups into a match regardless of what weight class's the 8-Man is rocking.

The bigger question for me is what about when you have an number of players in your clan that isn't divisible by 8. The scenario would be say you have 23 players on. That would afford you 2 full 8 man groups and then what about the 7 players left over? Will they be able to make a 7 man and launch into the Pre-made queue? Based on the current discussion coming from PGI the 7 players would be forced to break down into a 4-Man and a 3-Man group and would not be able to play together as a 7-Man which we had in the previous MM iterations before Phase 1, that included weight based match making.

TLDR: Way to go PGI, another blow to friends playing big stompy robots online with each other in a group.

My other big concern is the capacity at PGI to develop and implement core game mechanic changes in a timely fashion that will not cause the Title to shrivel and die on the vine as the player base leaves for good while PGI tries to figure it out. The follow on issue with this concern is the lack of quality testing coming from PG's internal paid testersI before a patch is pushed. This has been an ongoing theme with PGI since closed beta stage 1, and has become the norm. Maybe less Cheba Monkey time out back in the smokers section and some accountability for a failure to catch major core game mechanic issues.

And no, This is a Beta doesn't cover the above statement.

Edited by Tasorin, 08 November 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Greyfyl]

I find it hilarious that so many people seem to think 8v8 with no restrictions will simply 'be ok'.

I agree - why put any thought into it?

[GatorG]

It seems that most of the talk is about tonnage, but I find the uneven team numbers to be more disturbing. If I am playing at a time when only 3 or 4 of my normal team is on, it will probably be better for me to PUG against other Pug teams rather than take a 5 person team up against an 8 person team, at least as far a possibility of winning goes.

[Amechwarrior]

Phase 2 will turn in to Atlas: Online within a week. We used to fight hard turtle 8man premade atlas teams back when lunchbacks were fast and the awesome wasn't a joke. Any premade dropping in 8 assault won't leave the base ever. They have no chance of stopping the cap and they know it. They have no gameplay incentive to leave.

So once you have 8 Atlases w/AMS sitting on cap you have the hardest of turtles. You can't LRM them because your LOS providing scouts will be obliterated from the combined fire from 8 Atlases and your LRMs negated by the massed AMS and AS7-Ks. Once your scout makes one mistake, he dies. You are down one and will lose if the timer runs out.

You can break these turtles, but it's hard. Turtling is the "easy way out" for most premade teams and a "dead mans tactic" used by teams when they know they can't win any other way. But, while boring and un-inventive it works really, really well with minimal skill. This is why it will become popular. Because doing it another way is hard.

While real teams will continue to play aggressively the bulk of the more casual queuers in phase 2 will quickly turn to spawn-camping 8man Atlas teams unless the game modes give them a reason to leave the base. This will also lead to two turtle teams not wanting to leave their respective caps until the last 5 minutes of a match and more tied, boring gameplay.

[Xantha]

Basically, the casual fan base has been screwed for months (perceived or real) and to compensate, the hard core team oriented fans are now paying the price.

We're going to have to suffer through unbalanced 8v8 for at least a month while they try and figure out how to queue things up correctly. Given the track record of the past 4-5 patches though, It seems we break more stuff than we fix with each patch and it's wearing on the player base (new and old).

Only time will tell if this fixes things or makes it worse. Given PGI's track record, the later seems more likely.

[ReD3y3]

The logical answer is Tonnage.

Max tonnage filled by whatever mix/match of mechs your team of 8 can put together.

For example:
500 Tons Max

Atlas 100 Tons
Atlas 100 Tons
Catapult 65 Tons
Catapult 65 Tons
Hunchback 50 Tons
Hunchback 50 Tons
Jenner 35 Tons
Jenner 35 Tons
----------------------------
500 Tons


Or

Atlas 100 Tons
Catapult 65 Tons
Catapult 65 Tons
Catapult 65 Tons
Hunchback 50 Tons
Hunchback 50 Tons
Cicada 40 Tons
Cicada 40 Tons
----------------------------
475 Tons



You can be under the max weight of 500 Tons.

You just cant be over.

[Cheatos]

tenderloving, on 08 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

This was also before matchmaking. We're not talking about random people being thrown together, we're talking about organized teams.

actually not true, there was a long stretch of time just after the point where you could drop as 16 man random drop for both sides to an 8 man drop where there were no restriction in the MM, about a month if memory serves.

[TostitoBandito]

8 Atlases is not a great example. A mix of 6 Atlases (2 slow LRM boats, 2 fast brawlers, 2 medium/fast fire support) and 2 Jenners to scout and harass would be much better.

The point remains valid though. This will marginalize medium and heavy mechs a great deal until some form of matchmaking returns.

[WaddeHaddeDudeda]

I'd like to ask at least the halfway decent teams to check out this and give me an aye or nay.
It won't prevent the atlas turtle camp fest, but will probably grant some valid games more often at least.
Thank you!

[Operant]

I've played on and against premades running 8x Atlas vs balanced team way back in closed beta before matching and the balanced team always loses.

800 tons.

Edited by Operant, 10 November 2012 - 03:06 AM.

[soulfire]

More worthless whining about stuff that wont happen still going to be cat. based. * assaults against 8 assualts just like it was before. Or do you wish it to be 2222 god save us on that one. Most of us don't even own a mech from each weight group. I can see you in open pugs telling people you can only be a med to join our 8 man.

[Lyteros]

What is the plan?
The same as every patch pinkie...
Ignore all concerns, math and analysis in the forums, then just press it out and do a quickfix on what is whined about the most.

Edited by Lyteros, 10 November 2012 - 03:44 AM.

[Vapor Trail]

tenderloving, on 08 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Add a handful of balancing mechs to this Assault team and now they have every potential weakness covered. With no tonnage restrictions, this will be the most varied team composition I can think of that is still safe:

1 Scout
1 Scout Hunter
2 Dual Gauss Mechs
4 Atlas

This team has no weaknesses. It can scout, it can take out a light threat, it can snipe, and it can rain missiles. Each Atlas can run LRM/Gauss and use their energy slots for ML/MPL on the off chance an enemy survives intact to get to brawling range. The focus target will have 8 Gauss and 80-120 LRMs coming its way.

Extrapolating this to 12v12. I would do the following:

2 Scouts (Jenners, probably)
2 Scout Hunters (Cicadas)
2 Long range Direct Fire Support (GaussKitty, ATM)
2 Long range Indirect Fire Support (LRMs, either Catapult, Awesome, or Atlas Boats ATM)
4 Assault (Atlas, ATM)

The way it works out is: Pursuit Lance, Fire Lance, Assault Lance...

Funny isn't it.

[Keifomofutu]

Vapor Trail, on 10 November 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

Extrapolating this to 12v12. I would do the following:

2 Scouts (Jenners, probably)
2 Scout Hunters (Cicadas)
2 Long range Direct Fire Support (GaussKitty, ATM)
2 Long range Indirect Fire Support (LRMs, either Catapult, Awesome, or Atlas Boats ATM)
4 Assault (Atlas, ATM)

The way it works out is: Pursuit Lance, Fire Lance, Assault Lance...

Funny isn't it.

Trouble with this is your 2 long range indirect fire support will be assault. And if an assault with more than 1 ballistic slot in different locations comes out then your direct fire support becomes an assault as well.

Which once again turns the game into Assault online with a couple lights. The current ballistic slots are the only thing giving heavies a role at all.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 10 November 2012 - 08:47 AM.

[RAM]

Tasorin, on 08 November 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

The bigger question for me is what about when you have an number of players in your clan that isn't divisible by 8. The scenario would be say you have 23 players on. That would afford you 2 full 8 man groups and then what about the 7 players left over? Will they be able to make a 7 man and launch into the Pre-made queue? Based on the current discussion coming from PGI the 7 players would be forced to break down into a 4-Man and a 3-Man group and would not be able to play together as a 7-Man which we had in the previous MM iterations before Phase 1, that included weight based match making.
TLDR: Way to go PGI, another blow to friends playing big stompy robots online with each other in a group.

False – completely non-issue and a gross misunderstanding of the published mechanics.

Bryan Ekman, on 30 October 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Phase 2: November 20th

Pre-Made groups will be able to match against other pre-made groups.

• Min group size: 4 players
  
• Max group size: 8 players
  
• Class Matching: No
  
• Uneven Teams: Yes

Cheers!


RAM
ELH

[GatorG]

how about just do multiple ques in 100 ton increments. Team size does not matter only the weight of the drop. So if 4 people want to drop at 400 tons (4 Atlas) against a more balanced 6 or 8 person team of 400 tons they can. And if you are dropping 800 tons, you may have to wait a while to find 8 others who want to all run altas.

[Gimpy Warpig]

Matist, on 08 November 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

For PUGs I think a tonage vs tonage system makes sense. For premades I'd personally like to see it kept wide open for players to design their own units and have it be anything goes.

Basically build the game and let the premades decide how to play it. If it becomes an issue where everyone is being forced to field assaults then look into a fix. Either do matched tonages or look into enhancing the other mech roles more.

But I thinking trying to deal with it now is solving a problem that doesn't exist yet.

Well said. PUG's, sure. Pre-made teams fighting each other - no limitation, if there is to be a limitation the teams would agree to it going in. Out of 10+ years of Online Mech league play, I can count on one hand the # of times that didnt work right, and even then it was easily remedied and/or the match was invalidated readily.

[PYR0MANCER]

I didn't read every page so...

One thing people are missing (or maybe someone did in here I'm too lazy to read any more) is the fact that there is a different game mode coming... It won't be the same straightforward cap or kill all scenario... * atlai might carry alot of firepower but it would be almost meaningless if there are multiple objectives... The lack in speed would severly hurt the all atlai team...

Edited by Tyros the Pyromancer, 10 November 2012 - 09:19 PM.