21 replies to this topic

[Evex]

Since the devs have mentioned the existence of role warfare. I figured I start a series of discussions so that the community can come to an understanding of each role. Its also here to help players better configure their battlemechs to these specific roles. First I feel that a few ground rules need to be in place.

1. Keep the discussion civilized
2. Do not stereotype a battlemech into a certain role
3. Keep an open mind while discussing the topic.

The first role up for discussion in this series is the Raider. Since we know that a 12 v 12 match will have two conditions to it the raider can play a role in the game play. The two winning conditions are destroy all enemy battlemechs, or capture the enemy base. Players who have there battlemechs configured to the raider setting are essentially base harassment assets. This means they make a move towards the enemy base in an attempt to either suppress the enemy at the base, or to weaken the defending battlemechs stationed at the base. The raider can also be considered a harassment role, which allows a player to hit and run the enemy disrupting them, or causing the enemy to stop and deal with the raider.

[TeaL3af]

I can't remember reading anything about bases, but I guess a Raider would be Medium mech with good sustainable fire power and decent speed. It would also need a bit of range so it has a head start when trying to run away. It wouldn't need alpha strikes, instead it should go for higher overall DPS with little need to dissipate heat or wait for weapons to recycle.

Edited by TeaL3af, 18 April 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[Vandul]

A raider would be unlikely to be ammunition dependent for its role.

[Major Tom]

I don't see this as a valuable role.
At it's essence it is a bad scout, instead of transmitting valuable recon and targeting data to its lancemates, it gets destroyed alone in enemy territory weakening the rest of the team.

The reason this strategy works in other MMOs is that your harrasser can respawn when it gets killed, so there is no penalty for putting pressure on the enemy flag. Oh and there probably wont be a flag, a more genere oriented goal would be capture and hold.

Remember Role warfar is only one component, information warfare is another big component. As a counter-intelligence scout-hunter role, I imagine oa couple counter-intelligence mechs would be very beneficial.

[Lailoken]

Sounds like you'd be better off with a scout/flanker lance than a lone raider? Especially with only one life. A mix of mediums and lights that are hard to detect and can provide some direct fire support and spotting information, add a NARC'er in there too.

I agree ammunition dependence shouldn't be a big factor.

[Iovenn Clay]

I think the most important fact is that you got one life. That makes a big difference to most PC games. I really hope that the skills and modules will help a mixed company to survive against 12 Atlas sticking together.
But a single mech not fast enough to outrun every other Mech will be hoplessly destroyed and therefore no help at all for his/her company.

A raider lance on the other hand could provide enough fire power and pressure to force the opponent to react.
In the end all we do is guessing. We will see when the game is out.

[ASC]

Certainly you can define a role like this, though i'm not sure if there isn't a better name for it then raider.

Mech type:
Fairly fast mechs, usually medium, but superior firepower then scout mechs.

Primary tasks:
1. Elimination of hostile scouting mechs. These should have enough power to take them down and enough speed to make it difficult for the scouts to escape.
2. Harrassment. should be able to damage the main hostile mech force for minimal damage in return by hitting and fading back into cover with enough speed to escape. primary targets with this: legs to mess with grouping/support, arms containing primairy weapons.
3. Assist. when teams heavy mechs engage the enemy these mechs should have enough speed to reach them and lend fire support to their allies, helping tip the table and keep their more powerful teammates from being mobbed.

Its for roles like this that medium mechs or something like a Dragon might excel.

[AlanEsh]

I will plod my way to your base and "raid" you with my Awesome.

[guardian wolf]

I always thought that the Raider would be something that can keep up with Scouts, with more punch than said scouts, and is respectable for it's class, maybe strip off some lighter weapons to up speed, and keep only one or two big punches. With that said, the perfect raider would be in my mind the kind of mech the Uziel represents, especially when you take the MGs off and trade for bigger engine, an LRM rack, and keep the PPCs. A mech that is fast with respectable firepower I can admire, like some of my variants of the Centurion, which trade off some lasers just taken off, the AC20, for an AC10, extra weight is thrown into the engine, and some LRMs, with a little left over for armor.

[Kargush]

I'd assume a fair bit of speed, mostly energy weapons, and hand actuators to make smash-and-grab easier.

[osito]

I can see a properly run raider unit doing well in this game. A good hunter/killer lance is worth its weight in gold. Fast enough to catch a lone heavy/ assault mech and pound it. Also a scout will think twice of scouting deeper if it see's a couple of fast mediums in the area.

[El Loco]

I would organize roles like a raider on a lance level as well. Going solo to the enemy's base is kind of a suicidal move, and I'd go mad if I had one or two of those people in my company. As a lance, raiders are more than viable. I would include in such a lance 1 pilot specialised in the scout role, 2 or 3 offence specialists, and maybe 1 commander. As for weapons, I'd go with some ACs and missiles, to make aiming a little harder for the enemy, and heavier beam weapons for main damage dealing (PPCs for the win!). Imho, the most important factor for a raider lance is the ability to focus on one target... taking them down fast, and moving on to the next target.

[Orzorn]

Personally, my vision of a raider is this:
A raider must be faster than the average mech of almost any weight class (except for light). Raiders should have a minimal amount of ammo based weapons. If they do have an ammunition based weapon, I think it should be something like a Streak SRM to minimize lose of ammunition, although the lack of SSRM6s right now might mean you'll have to stick with an SRM6. Just try not to miss.

Raiders should likely be mediums like the Hunchback or Centurion or fast heavies like the Dragon, although mechs like the Jenner could do the job well. Raider should have jump jets and preferably an ECM suite. Raiders can be more lightly armored if you need the extra tonnage to mount more weapons. Remember, the point of a raider is to get in and get out. You should not get shot up.

The goal of a raider is to get behind enemy lines, pop an important asset/mech, and then hightail it out of there. The best targets are ones that have issues defending themselves, such as LRM boats and scouts. Of course, picking up a kill on a commander would be the best, although that is most likely not going to happen.

Raiders should disrupt the enemy lines by forcing them to turn around or group around a single mech to protect it. Due to a raider's speed, the can bob and weave in and out of combat to keep the enemy on their toes. If you've ever played a spy or scout in Team Fortress 2, you could play a good raider. If the area gets to "hot" (that is, lots of enemies around looking to kill you), then move to another area of the enemy line and tear that up instead. Keep them on their toes and keep slagging their important parts off. While kills are important, light or medium raiders can not likely do enough damage fast enough on their own to kill a mech, so you should instead focus on stripping the weapons from a mech, only moving in for the kill when they're sufficiently damaged.

In that vein, you are a sort of vulture. You attack targets of opportunity. Mechs with damaged legs are easy targets, and mechs with damage back sections are the juiciest. If you're having trouble finding a good target, go to passive and stealth around the area. Shut down if you have to. Just wait for an opportunity to strike, and then take it and get the heck out.

Due to your vulnerabilities and need for already damaged mechs, a good raider should spot for their allies to get LRM fire softening up the targets. Suggested modules would be the Null Signature for easier escapes, the Power Up/Power Down Speed Increase for quick ambushing, and Danger Close for greater battlefield awareness (don't want to walk face first into an Atlas!).

Using these tactics, I imagine that a good raider could be a serious thorn in the side of any team, except the thorn kills you.

Edited by Orzorn, 18 April 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

thats why i like the 45 ton range mechs. usually sporting ac/5 and med lasers and pretty quick. raiding would be great for them

[guardian wolf]

I usually consider a raider lance to probably consist of two raider "teams" one Hammer, and one Anvil. the Anvil will stick with the main battle group, as it advances and provide support on targets, Hammer on the other hand, is to go behind enemy lines, and start playing hell with the enemy.

Edited by guardian wolf, 19 April 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Victor Morson]

A proper raider is most easily noted as the Loki in MW4. It was capable of carrying highly damaging long range weapons and a lot of speed (at the expense of armor) along with ECM & BAP, which is key. My definition of the idea is a unit that can constantly harass forces while having enough speed and electronics to evade return fire which is precisely what the Loki was capable of. A good raider pilot was capable of destroying multiple 'mechs or severely damaging a large amount, often running out of ammo long before taking serious damage.

If ECM & BAP can indeed be put on any 'mech, sadly, it kind of ruins the "personality" of raiders because any chassis can be turned into one.

The closest thing to this kind of gameplay in MWLL was the Raven sporting an ELRM, because it was able to empty it's entire ammo load in single-life battles while staying outside of weapon return range and being very hard to find on radar.

Edited by Victor Morson, 19 April 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[3Xtr3m3]

This raider role sounds like a good role for the 12 year olds that will inevitably end up on your team. Send them out to wreck havoc on the opposing team while the adults get into a proper team setting to deal a final defeat to the enemy.

[Canas]

Raider=Grasshopper

[Aegis Kleais]

I'm not of the belief that I would give classification names to actions that anyone in my lance can perform. "Raiding" just sounds to me like interception and engagement.

Destruction of enemy forces or capture of their base are just the terms for victory. I'd rather my lance move as a cohesive unit (with Scouting Mechs out detecting enemy positions and providing feedback for on-the-fly courses of action)

If we see an opportunity to seize a base and win, we enact tactics to do that. If we find a stray Mech, we enact tactics to wolfpack and team up on it. None of our Mechs would be predefined into "just raiding". Mechs don't need to stay close by the lance at all times, but if we choose to intercept and engage an enemy, it's always best to bring the full might of a lance on the target rather than a single Mech.

[Leetskeet]

3Xtr3m3, on 19 April 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

This raider role sounds like a good role for the 12 year olds that will inevitably end up on your team. Send them out to wreck havoc on the opposing team while the adults get into a proper team setting to deal a final defeat to the enemy.

*golfclap*

http://www.youtube.c...5H46QnQ&t=0m55s

So now you're a little child if you happen to be good sneaking around tagging enemy mechs with something like a PPC and then changing locations before they even figure out where you are? Okay.

Hitting an Atlas 4 or 5 times with a PPC as it tries to find cover and figure out where its getting shot from starts to hurt. Besides outright killing a mech, they can wittle it down to the point that anything it gets in a brawl with is going to kill it. There's going to be lone wolf type players that are good at what they do, so why are they twelve year olds?