193 replies to this topic

[Tyzh]

Vexgrave Lars, on 19 April 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

I love it when people call out my tribe... the min maxers, power gamers, munchkins.

Since you asked!

If you get "out-mathed" and "out-built" and then lost a match...especially to a lesser driver then you deserve it.. All the name calling in the universe "munchkin", "min-maxer" still leaves you a loser at the end. The heart of the act of war is to WIN, right? Why would you short change yourself ? If your role playing, is your role an over emotional incompetent hipster love-in flower girl at designing your mechs weapons load out, and balancing your combat needs and enhancing your battlefield value, to the game, your lance, and company mates? If so , again, you get what you deserved and tragically, they too will pay for your incompetence!

Damage curve analysis and Weight to armor to speed mechanics have been under scrutiny forever, since before the first counter ever hit a table. Tell ya what.. lets all drive exactly identical urban mechs.. so its all 100% fair, and you can feel equal. Please do the world a favor, and simply try harder to be better, and think for your own benefit, and your teams.

Because a lot of us already do, have, and will continue to, refine the art of playing Mechwarrior down as close as the rules will allow to a razors edge. Its a game of numbers from mechlab to retrieval, your betting your odds against luck and your wit, and you better load your dice.
Good Luck with your crusade Quixote.

Of course.. I know I'm a monster.. so is my whole tribe.

I like the way you sell yourself as the spirit of competition -- like some kind of craftsman building a better world. It's lovely rhetoric. Honest. I liked it. But you seem to misunderstand the issue. When people complain about min/maxing they aren't complaining about competition. People aren't irritated because they are incompetent. They have no qualms with you scrutinizing your armor to speed ratios. The problem is that it breaks games. It's not your fault. You aren't a monster. You just, maybe, don't look past the fact that one course of action is worthless compared to another to wonder, "Why? Why can't I do that? It's in the game isn't it? Why isn't it viable?" You simply take for face value that what's worthless is worthless and minimize it to maximize what is valuable. Which is nice for you, good job.

The problem is when it becomes, as you put it, "loaded dice". Do you see how that might be a problem? Maybe, in the larger scope of things? There should be no way to load your dice. It's not the death of min/maxing. It will always be there. But if the game is done right, there will be no worthless dead weight to minimize. You would have to agonize over every trade-off.

[Thorn Hallis]

I don't see anything bad connected to min-/maxing. Isn't every one of us of looking for the most viable config for our mech of choice?
But until we know how the game goes, we can only guess if it will matter to field a maxed-out-mech - after all, the success in MWO will be defined by teamplay, not individual performance.

[Savant]

Tyzh, on 19 April 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I like the way you sell yourself as the spirit of competition -- like some kind of craftsman building a better world. It's lovely rhetoric. Honest. I liked it. But you seem to misunderstand the issue. When people complain about min/maxing they aren't complaining about competition. People aren't irritated because they are incompetent. They have no qualms with you scrutinizing your armor to speed ratios. The problem is that it breaks games. It's not your fault. You aren't a monster. You just, maybe, don't look past the fact that one course of action is worthless compared to another to wonder, "Why? Why can't I do that? It's in the game isn't it? Why isn't it viable?" You simply take for face value that what's worthless is worthless and minimize it to maximize what is valuable. Which is nice for you, good job.

The problem is when it becomes, as you put it, "loaded dice". Do you see how that might be a problem? Maybe, in the larger scope of things? There should be no way to load your dice. It's not the death of min/maxing. It will always be there. But if the game is done right, there will be no worthless dead weight to minimize. You would have to agonize over every trade-off.

I think your thinking more of a silver bullet then a min/max standpoint.

If someone can mathhammer out the details and build the ultimate min/max build for their specific mech then good on them.

When everyone starts copying it to the T becasue its somehow noticably above and beyond all other builds of that specific mech type and even other mechs in that class then it has become a silver bullet and transitions to a BALANCE issue, not a min/max issue and will usually be nerfed in shortish order (depending on how the developers are speedy on balance corrections).

Min/max situations are more like someone realizes that a specific mech can have a very high alpha strike loadout for close range weapons and then they spend all their time carefully selecting the piloting skills required (of which we know little of) to build the best infighting build with the least amount of points/time invested into it, minimum investment, maximum profit.

Its the essence of Clan and Imperial (SW) warfare, minimum forces, maximum results.

[Evex]

Armor min/max can be fixed with a very simple solution. That is to have the values linked to each other, so when one number is adjusted the other number automatically adjusts to the same number. This would essentially be used on the right/left leg, right/left torso, right/left torso (rear) and right/left arms. It would prevent a person from adjusting only the "useless side" armor to none existence, since the useful side would adjust to the same number.

[Soviet Alex]

I'm not sure how much of the game "rules" will actually be visible to the players, vs. how much will be hidden in the back. Min-Maxing in any game requires unrestricted access to the rule book. If we don't have that, we'll be working from Battletech or previous Mechwarrior titles in the hope that things work the same. The Raven's electronics are a good example, how they work in Battletech is completely different to how they work in MW3. Personally, I see myself optimising my mechs for particular roles & my abilities as a pilot, rather than spending hours in the mech-lab creating the perfect killing machine.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Tyzh, on 19 April 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I like the way you sell yourself as the spirit of competition -- like some kind of craftsman building a better world. It's lovely rhetoric. Honest. I liked it. But you seem to misunderstand the issue. When people complain about min/maxing they aren't complaining about competition. People aren't irritated because they are incompetent. They have no qualms with you scrutinizing your armor to speed ratios. The problem is that it breaks games. It's not your fault. You aren't a monster. You just, maybe, don't look past the fact that one course of action is worthless compared to another to wonder, "Why? Why can't I do that? It's in the game isn't it? Why isn't it viable?" You simply take for face value that what's worthless is worthless and minimize it to maximize what is valuable. Which is nice for you, good job.

The problem is when it becomes, as you put it, "loaded dice". Do you see how that might be a problem? Maybe, in the larger scope of things? There should be no way to load your dice. It's not the death of min/maxing. It will always be there. But if the game is done right, there will be no worthless dead weight to minimize. You would have to agonize over every trade-off.

Power Gamers/Munchkins Do not Cheat.. loaded dice.. bad analogy, was, and still am tired.

The rules lawyers taught me cheating is bad... and what you described it cheating.

I just do everything in my power to develop my character to be the utmost he can be, I try not to do anything mediocre.

If the game is balanced.. cheating should be impossible.

[Havoc2]

Choose the 'Mech before even knowing where you're fighting? Um, no.

You're going to load your Awesome into the dropship and then ask, "Hey where we going? Oh a desert planet? Damn." I don't think so.

Min/maxing exists EVERYWHERE!

What do you do when you shop for your insurance company? Do you just pick one, add everything and then pay? Do you look at what options they have, what it will cost, compare it with another company and then go from there? MIN/MAXING BASTAGE!!!

If the MechLab is removed, are you going to take Variant B just because, even though Variant A has more speed, more armour, more weapons and less command equipment that you don't use because in Canon that's what your regiment runs?

You want to remove min/maxing from the game? Take out the Mechlab, and remove ALL 'Mechs from the game except for 1.
There, now no one has the option of picking this 'Mech because it's a better scout, or this 'Mech because it's a better brawler etc.

Min/maxing comes from the players having OPTIONS. This is a good thing.

Vexgrave Lars, on 20 April 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Power Gamers/Munchkins Do not Cheat.. loaded dice.. bad analogy, was, and still am tired.

The rules lawyers taught me cheating is bad... and what you described it cheating.

I just do everything in my power to develop my character to be the utmost he can be, I try not to do anything mediocre.

If the game is balanced.. cheating should be impossible.

Min/maxing is not cheating.

Cheating would be exploiting a bug in PPCs that allows them to be fired without heat or reload timers, turning off heat in a HOLA game or something that the game never intended for.

Min/maxing is dropping stuff you don't need/want/use in favour of something that you do need/want/use. Like dropping heatsinks on a ballistic heavy design or removing ammo from a design that relies primarily on it's energy weapons in favour of more heatsinks.

[Vexgrave Lars]

}{avoc, on 20 April 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Choose the 'Mech before even knowing where you're fighting? Um, no.

You're going to load your Awesome into the dropship and then ask, "Hey where we going? Oh a desert planet? Damn." I don't think so.

Min/maxing exists EVERYWHERE!

What do you do when you shop for your insurance company? Do you just pick one, add everything and then pay? Do you look at what options they have, what it will cost, compare it with another company and then go from there? MIN/MAXING BASTAGE!!!

If the MechLab is removed, are you going to take Variant B just because, even though Variant A has more speed, more armour, more weapons and less command equipment that you don't use because in Canon that's what your regiment runs?

You want to remove min/maxing from the game? Take out the Mechlab, and remove ALL 'Mechs from the game except for 1.
There, now no one has the option of picking this 'Mech because it's a better scout, or this 'Mech because it's a better brawler etc.

Min/maxing comes from the players having OPTIONS. This is a good thing.



Min/maxing is not cheating.

Cheating would be exploiting a bug in PPCs that allows them to be fired without heat or reload timers, turning off heat in a HOLA game or something that the game never intended for.

Min/maxing is dropping stuff you don't need/want/use in favour of something that you do need/want/use. Like dropping heatsinks on a ballistic heavy design or removing ammo from a design that relies primarily on it's energy weapons in favour of more heatsinks.

But a good Min Maxer AVOIDS using the bug because he's sure he doesn't need it... a Cheat finds a way to use a bug to its utmost..

[SideSt3p]

I am definitely a power-gamer. Why? Because I strive to be the best at whatever I'm doing. Whether its my job, video games or hobbies. I am naturally a very competitive person.

What I think matters is how people go about achieving their competitive edge. For myself, it's finding a way to work well with my team while playing the best class/'Mech/champion for my playstyle. Yes I will load out my armor and weapons as a way that works for ME, not necessarily what's made up in books. But that's how I enjoy games.

[Vulpesveritas]

Simple thing is, if PGI does this right, then min/maxing will be something which won't break the game. Mainly due to the hardpoint system that should cut down on boating. In the end, I'll still be pwning you via my centurion, and laughing at anyone who decides to build a mech out of missiles/lasers, a nuke, and tissue paper.

[Lailoken]

The point: I'd not see full customizability reduced for any reason so long as the parts we are given are balanced.

The rant:

As much as Vexgrave Lars sounds like... we'll go with "monster" as he put it, has a bit of a point: if you can't beat them get better. If the game is properly balanced, or the imbalance is minimal, you can and will beat people with annoying designs/strategies that you won't reduce yourself to using by pure skill. Or pull some tricks out of their bag, with limits of course. By being too high minded your doing yourself more of a disservice than the "munchkins" are degrading themselves; its war after all.

If they are really really good and use tactics some consider 'unfair' and you can't beat them.. just find a new server. If a game becomes saturated with people like that, stop playing it (and be bitter because this game looks awesome). If the devs stick to not selling combat advantage for $$ game balance and skill will speak for themselves.

[Xaks]

Ya know, I accept that I'm an old fart 'round these parts, and that my knowledge is more tabletop based.

BUT!

I seem to recall damage transfer working just a wee bit differently than y'all are referring. In combat, if you had an arm blown off, and further arm damage in that engagement would transfer inward to the corresponding torso *internally*, meaning a single MG 'armor' shot could crit your engine in the left torso.

And THAT is why noone would ever do this intentionally. Armor transfer of damage bypassed the thick torso armor and we straight to the crit table.

Damnit, now I gotta see if I can dig up my old rulebook and find the page....

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

I'm just glad we got the new hardpoint/critical hybrid so we don't have 18yr olds running around in Clan Arrow IV boats any more.

[Riptor]

The sort of min/maxing that could be observed in other mechwarrior titles wont be happening here.

The max numbers of weapons on a given mech are not only limited by tonnage but also by hardpoint type and most importantly the number of weapons the original version had.

So we wont see an atlas with 20 med lasers.. the max number of energy weapon a standard atlas can carry is 4... because he has 4 energy hardpoints and theres only one weapon per hardpoint allowed.

So chill out people... and should we really be picking our mech before we hit the "go" button for a match then people will tend to more balanced loadouts anyways.

God knows theres nothing worse then a desert map with an all energy loadout.

Quote

Clan Arrow IV boats

Naga? ^^

Two Arrow IVs, paperthin armor and slow as hell...

Edited by Riptor, 20 April 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[errorabbit]

Rather than being able to reduce an arms armor to zero, I'd have you remove the arm entirely. No mock target factor and it makes more sense from a fluff point of you... if you get everything of worth out of that arm, don't want to armor it, why would you even put those myomers and stuff on your mech to be blown up in virtually every battle?

[Wired]

People misunderstand what min/maxing does to a game.

It's not that it isn't viable. Surely, having a mech with all armor on one side of the torso and running circles around a guy sounds like an awesome idea... however it takes away from the feel of the game.

It is physically harmful to the experience of the game for everyone else, pretty much.

In roleplaying games, minmaxers are the characters who are one dimensional and are only there to roll and see how big of a number they get.

In wargames/cardgames/whatever, they are the players who run whatever is the build of the internet at the time, making them the BLANDEST army to play against.

References to real life minmaxing is missing the point. In real life, the trade offs for minmaxing are real and can have some real consequences. A good example is the use of Vtol craft: Minmaxing on mobility, but they tend to have FATAL accidents.

In a game, it's an extremely controlled environment. You don't care that the armor on your cockpit to the left is paper thin. Or that an arm you could use to brace yourself against structures will crumple if looked at cockeyed - it's not part of the game.

But really, if you want to minmax no one is stopping you. The only thing you are doing is minimizing on fun, and maximizing boring.

[Garth Erlam]

I will probably spend more time in the final MechLab than i do actually playing, so I hope for a lot of 'min-maxing' - that said, a bad pilot is a bad pilot; it'll never come down to 'who had 2 extra armour points in their left torso instead of their right arm' - at least not from what I've seem

[Mason Grimm]

I'm with Garth on this.

I LOVE stripping down mechs and building loadouts. In fact that is probably one of my favorite parts of the old Table Top game as well as every mechwarrior game that had a mechlab. Hence why I created MechSpecs. It is not just a community service its also feeding a hobby of mine; min maxing machines!

"Oh but Min Maxing breaks the game!" Really? You aren't playing it right then. I can sum a successful pilot up in three words (going back to muh old army days): Analyze, Adapt, Overcome.

[Mechteric]

The only way min/maxing wouldn't exist is if we all piloted the same mech, same variant, without customizations. That would be the most boring game ever by the way.

[Motionless]

Tyzh, on 19 April 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

They have no qualms with you scrutinizing your armor to speed ratios. The problem is that it breaks games. It's not your fault.

"Breaks games." What the hell does this even mean? You say it breaks a game and then don't even BOTHER to explain what that means! You and the OP need to start explaining WHY and not just point fingers around and start labeling things as "BAD, SHOULD BE PROHIBITED." You actually need to start doing some intellectual legwork and make a real argument, I've even looked thru the thread to see if you made any argument previous to your post - you didn't.

I played MW3 online, on certain mechs in certain situations (C5 UA ICE match an avatar with no armor on left arm) we did things the OP is 'against.' Were we 'breaking' the game? I had fun, the people I played against had fun. Was this WRONGBAD FUN?!

I wont really address comparing it to loading dice, because it's ridiculous, and others already have.

Edited by Motionless, 20 April 2012 - 08:27 AM.