42 replies to this topic

[renahzor]

Tyrzun, on 12 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Sweet a couple people can actually read and comprehend what is being said. Kudos to you Thorn Black.

I think they get what is being said, but are actually pretending something else is said because they are the farmers.

Replying to your own post to support your argument, and then to bump it for you, is stupid.

Aside from that, as I said before, all of these ideas about forcing a person to spectate for up to 15 minutes of a match are ridiculous and will not work, and would only serve to drive off new players. Reward players for in-game participation in positive ways, so they earn much less by dying than they would by playing. Include in this scheme ways for players to earn bonuses for daily, weekly, and lifetime achievements (IE: kills, assists spots, and more tracked across the players lifetime giving Cbill bonuses at milestones).

Your idea of someone not playing the way you want so they should be punished like a child in timeout is really, truly dumb. In addition, the current game mode rewards running straight to the enemy base. It is a failure of design causing the issues you're seeing, on many levels. Adding in a naughty corner will not curb the problem, just as locking trial mechs has not. I'd almost like to see this just to shoot people in the back and force them to spectate as I run off to the middle of nowhere, making sure to prolong the fight as long as possible, but then, I'm pretty vindictive.

[Tyrzun]

renahzor, on 13 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Replying to your own post to support your argument, and then to bump it for you, is stupid.

Aside from that, as I said before, all of these ideas about forcing a person to spectate for up to 15 minutes of a match are ridiculous and will not work, and would only serve to drive off new players. Reward players for in-game participation in positive ways, so they earn much less by dying than they would by playing. Include in this scheme ways for players to earn bonuses for daily, weekly, and lifetime achievements (IE: kills, assists spots, and more tracked across the players lifetime giving Cbill bonuses at milestones).

Your idea of someone not playing the way you want so they should be punished like a child in timeout is really, truly dumb. In addition, the current game mode rewards running straight to the enemy base. It is a failure of design causing the issues you're seeing, on many levels. Adding in a naughty corner will not curb the problem, just as locking trial mechs has not. I'd almost like to see this just to shoot people in the back and force them to spectate as I run off to the middle of nowhere, making sure to prolong the fight as long as possible, but then, I'm pretty vindictive.

Tyrzun, on 11 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

I really like the bonus idea... actually that might work, but not based on performance. It would have to be for staying connected till the end of the match. An extra 25,000 credits or something. Something substantial is needed. It would have to be enough to make it more profitable to stay, than you can make dying cylcing mechs.

Good thinking Crazy Eight.

Considering I said that before you decided to pull from the post I made after I said that, after Crazy Eight suggested it. So, I don't see the relevance.

I totally disagree with you. My method would have TOTALLY stopped the negative behavior mentioned because those behaviors would not longer be possible. Farming etc...
Ramifications? Sure griefers would have to find a new way to grief and they probably would, but they wouldn't make $$$ faster. Can't totally stop griefers, but I can stop them from making a profit off doing it.


You don't have to like the idea, but it would work. It did get the dialogue started on the subject and so far Crazy Eight solution in my opinion. The more rewards for actually playing that can be achieved by cycling mechs.

Mech cycling people and griefers will certainly complain about any suggestion to curb them. That's a given.

Edited by Tyrzun, 13 November 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[renahzor]

Tyrzun, on 13 November 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Considering I said that before you decided to pull from the post I made after I said that, after Crazy Eight suggested it. So, I don't see the relevance.

I totally disagree with you. My method would have TOTALLY stopped the negative behavior mentioned because those behaviors would not longer be possible. Farming etc...
Ramifications? Sure griefers would have to find a new way to grief and they probably would, but they wouldn't make $$$ faster. Can't totally stop griefers, but I can stop them from making a profit off doing it.

You don't have to like the idea, but it would work. It did get the dialogue started on the subject and so far Crazy Eight solution in my opinion. The more rewards for actually playing that can be achieved by cycling mechs.

Mech cycling people and griefers will certainly complain about any suggestion to curb them. That's a given.

It would curb the symptom of a greater problem, because it would then simply be impossible to to jump into another match. That doesn't negate the fact that forcing spectator for upwards of 15 minutes is a terrible idea, it flies in the face of engaging game design. You're suggesting driving a finish nail with a sledge hammer. I'll say it as I did before, if I have to watch someone for 14 minutes because I got gauss sniped or some other stupid mistake, that will be the last match I ever drop into in MWO.

You should probably go back to like the 4th post in this thread, I know it gets confusing swapping between 2 accounts to reply to yourself though, so no hurry.

[Agent of Change]

Crazy Eight, on 11 November 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

BETTER IDEA! You Can quit any time, but you don't get payed unless you are killed by another player or you win. In addition! You get paid BONUS for both killing enemies AND being in the top 3 for amount of damage dealt!



I mean like BIG Bonuses, Not like the ones already in the game. Increase it from 2000 a kill to 5000 or 10,000 extra CB per kill. Add a 5000 CB reward for players in the top 3....

Racking up high damage should not be rewarded anymore than it already is, efficient kills should be rewarded by higher slavage rewards, which they are, every ton on unnecessarily stripped armor from a dead mech is money out of your pocket. And I already think we should remove the "kill bonus" entirely in favor of a purely assist based reward system for killing a mech, speaking directly to enhanced "kill" bonuses the last thing we need is another reason to start whining about kill stealing (pfffft what a hilarious concept in a team game) and giving them reasons to be upset about it.

I've said it before the best way to deal with the disconnecting and suicide wonders is flat out remove "participation" payouts. You only get paid for what you do and that would be modified by a victory (or defeat) multiplier, you do nothing and your teams wins you still get nothing. Of course this would require more action based ways of getting xp, and repairs would need to be modified but you couldn't bot farm at least, or d/c farm, or suicide farm.

Edited by Agent of Change, 13 November 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Elder Thorn]

renahzor, on 08 November 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Terrible idea. Forcing new players to spectate after death will only make them more bored and have them leave sooner. They won't learn from it, it will be infuriating. I can tell you the first time I die early in a match and have to sit through another 12 minutes watching someone else play is the day I uninstall the game.

Fix the system by rewarding good play, not finding frankly stupid ways to punish "bad" play.

surpisingly i am spectating allmost every match that i die early in, i did NOT do that in WoT.
But i agree, OPs idea is no good. It's my choice to spectate it, if i am dead, is should be able to leave without further consequences

[Firehound]

Tyr, This is a terrible idea. I almost exclusively play small mechs, so I can not comment about gameplay at assault/heavy level. However, I have noticed that even when I do everything right, sometimes I scout straight into the enemy forces, which tends to end up with my mech dead in the first few minutes despite running and weaving away. Sometimes I get spotted and get tore apart by missiles in a map with little real cover, or I'm cought well out of cover. Other times, I spot a lot of enemies, drop a lot of SRMs into enemy mechs backs, and otherwise am useful. It's not uncommon for me to get assists on literally every enemy mech. However, the last thing I want to do is have to sit through watching the rest of my team go toe to toe in their assaults while I am unable to leave or else I lose Cbills.

Your idea is not player friendly at all. It is bad. Please take off the rose tinted goggles.

[Tyrzun]

Firehound, on 13 November 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Tyr, This is a terrible idea. I almost exclusively play small mechs, so I can not comment about gameplay at assault/heavy level. However, I have noticed that even when I do everything right, sometimes I scout straight into the enemy forces, which tends to end up with my mech dead in the first few minutes despite running and weaving away. Sometimes I get spotted and get tore apart by missiles in a map with little real cover, or I'm cought well out of cover. Other times, I spot a lot of enemies, drop a lot of SRMs into enemy mechs backs, and otherwise am useful. It's not uncommon for me to get assists on literally every enemy mech. However, the last thing I want to do is have to sit through watching the rest of my team go toe to toe in their assaults while I am unable to leave or else I lose Cbills.

Your idea is not player friendly at all. It is bad. Please take off the rose tinted goggles.

I usually play light or medium.

It is very common for most people to only care about how it effects them and not "Strangers" that are supposedly on their "Team". Not to sound too silly, but there is not I in team.

I said I am WILLING to take one for the team to stop people from sticking it to the team. You aren't and I suspect many people are not willing to "care" about other players.

My goals are clearly different than yours. I'm happy if the TEAM wins. Stopping farmers helps the team and that cannot be denied. Being down by 2 mechs to start a match is crippling. The original fix suggestion stopped that behavior. Me sitting and watching doesn't HURT the team. So, the original solution is a WIN for the team. Again, I get that most people really don't care about "team". Usually when I'M dead I actually SOCIALIZE with the other players. Hence the reason for a "multiplayer team" game is to not be anti-social as if it were a single player game. So, many really don't SEE the other players as real people or treat them as such. I was trying to change that as well. But hey, anti-social away. I mean people are so civil and friendly on these forums...

Grouping those of us that are concerned with team and working together with those that don't want to, isn't really fair to us. I cannot wait for PGI to separate the 2 groups.

All that being said, the BEST idea is Crazy Eights which was to give MORE rewards for those that stay in the match. To the point where you make MORE $$$ by staying in than you can if you rush and die to cycle mechs. So, people trying to farm CB will clearly stop rush dying mechs because they get LESS CB.

Team work needs to be rewarded, selfish play needs to be not rewarded.

So, I'll go ahead and edit my original post to put that in it. To hopefully avoid these types of responses.

[Zphyr]

Even if we do earn more if we stay until the end (as suggested) having to stare at the screen for 10 minutes is too boring. It would just drive people away, specially in a staring contest match... and I weep for the brave scouts, being hit in the frontlines.

I understand the need to discourage people from c-bills or trial farming, but won't this hurt the innocent players the most? And the ones that are truly willing to sacrifice themselves for the team, be them strangers or not? Why should I die to protect the cap, for example, if afterwards I would be forced to sit down and do absolutely nothing, with no way to leave? This won't promote team work, this will promote people being too cautious and refraining from engaging in fights while the team dies... like those who are too scared of paying repairs. Nobody wants to be idle, specially nowadays. People want things as much as possible and as quickly as possible, and if there's a high risk of doing nothing for half the match every time, they will just quit the game.

You're solving one problem by creating others. The idea is noble, but it may not work as intended.

[Tyrzun]

Zphyr, on 13 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

You're solving one problem by creating others. The idea is noble, but it may not work as intended.

Totally agree. Which is why I scraped the idea in favor of just rewarding those with more CB for staying by choice. I realize I didn't say give them the choice to stay. That's what I meant. Reward those for staying, more than they could get for farming. So, those that aren't farming can leave, to play more. Thus solving at least the farming aspect.

[p4r4g0n]

I understand the concerns you've expressed but think there is a simpler solution.

I have no idea what the average minimum time to death would be for a person who genuinely is trying to play but let's say it is 3 minutes from start, add a further 3 minutes for matchmaking and map to load. So total 6 minutes.

Hard code a limit in-game to restrict number of launches to e.g. 10 per hour.

This would slow down farmers and discourage people from intentionally disconnecting as soon as the game is launched.

Personally, I have no issues staying in game to the end as I usually do to learn what people are doing and what works or doesn't as the case may be.

Caveat: Restriction not applicable for first week (two weeks?) from time of 1st launch.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 14 November 2012 - 02:03 AM.

[Oda Shaidammoto]

first let me start with i am the pro when it comes to btech played it from the beganing (thats the old pen an papper u know the real game)
ok in another game called world of tanks do to the lack of team support i have dide many times what ur saying is that i should be punishd for that u defently have no idle how fast a mech can be droped i have 106 atlas kills in my battle master i was good but still i once got cought in an ambush my mech was devastated in a mater of a few rolls of the dice me in the master of the battle field and no less it was a groupe of med mechs that got me from behind a fail on my teams part not covering me my 6 so if that happens in the online vresion that i should have to wate for u to finish the game an be punished twice becaus u faild me wheni was doing my job u do know teams also fail the indavidgule player as well right u do know this right it happends all the time i think ur just a winer in wot i lost not because im a bad player but because my team was made up of campers an i was the only tanker going forward.
what u ask for will never happen so get use to it and do what i do in wot fight to the end some time u stil win even if u have a team that dont do its job as i suspect u are that kind.
an further more ppl just learning the game can not be expected to do well and should not be punished that way just cause they are up against a mor exps player that would be unfair im sure u didnt do so hot ur first time out so stop with the cry baby bull an play

[shabowie]

They just need to adjust money earned so you can't lose fast enough to win if you lost by being totally worthless dead weight. Make it so if you lose but go down valiantly fighting doing lots of damage you make a bit of money after repairs, but if you suicide across an open area and get roflstomped or go afk in your spawn and don't do anything you lose big money.

[HeroNemisis]

I think that the best idea so far is to simply adjust the rewards. Make it so the rewards are based on a slight flat damage reward and then another heavier one that is based on the percentage of the lethally damaged damage zone for a given kill that you destroyed. That way you get some credit for hitting people atleast, but the skilled players that are making efficient kills are rewarded fairly. That heavier one should also be weighted by mech type because it is more difficult to do damage as a light (assuming knockdowns are added back in). Throw out the kill assist reward, the blanket loss and win rewards and the kill reward entirely, stop tracking K/D in stats. If I do 90% damage to an enemy mech, another guy hits him once with a small laser beyond max range and another guy gets a lucky gaus shot off, I sure don't think its fair I get what the small laser got as a reward, while the gaus gets full credit for the kill. Replace the win and loss rewards with multipliers on the entire score (which is now based on damage done and damage done to lethal damage zones for kills). A win would have a multiplier >1 and loss <1. At the same time, make it so a person who does not make enough money to come out even just gets nothing.... but they gain no exp or xp in exchange for not loosing money (like the trial mechs). To give the Noobs a chance, add in a staged multiplier for newness (based on exp total earned) that scales things up so noobs can still progress to better equipment as they get better without getting overly frustrated by not earning money or exp while they suck. This of course whould taper off to eventually go away.

Oh, and while were add it, put a 24 hour ban on any buddy killers, and subtract twice the cost of damage done to any teammate due to friendly fire from the hasty shooter and pay for the cost of the repairs with it. I think the only thing about the rewards I dont mind is the spotting assist, lol!

As for the whole disconnecting thing, spectating through the match was required in AVA and punished by taking cash and exp from leavers in addition to not getting credit for anything in the match. I never minded it, but with MWO the servers aren't quite stable enough to punish people for disconnects. I get disconnected atleast once every 2 hours at peak game times, sometime more.

Edited by HeroNemisis, 14 November 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[Vizan Thalt]

From the cockpit of a Lone Wolf mech pilot who just got cored.

No.
1. You want the team experience, wait for this to go LIVE.
2. Have you really sat through a match!? Watching paint dry is more exciting!
3. I want to play, not watch, so I will bail and get into one of my other FOUNDERS MECHS and go play!
4. You CAN switch who you spectate, just click the arrows on who you spectate in the upper left, and anything faster than about 68 KPH is nausiating!
5. No one can tell anyone what they did wrong in a constructive manner after having just been MECH CORED, without cussing them out for being a stupid noob!!

Anything else that might have been posted here since, YES! I DID NOT READ ALL OF THE POSTS, will be either those who desperately want TEAMWORK right NOW! And those who want to play so they can get the hang of the mechs so when it does go LIVE they can be better. You want team work, get a group of friend who are used to this game and make your Lance. Don't force or penalize others for your ideals, unless you're paying very well and then this Lone Wolf will gladly take your Cbills to champion your cause, until I get cored and then I'm out to find the next Idealist with money.

I scrolled up a bit and read some of Tyrzun's other posts and discovered something... It sounds like your whining cause you feel that others are getting more Cbills than you are because they don't share your ideals of how to play the game, PERIOD. Nothing but you stopping you from bailing, except you. I have to complement you for having the fortitude to stay in after getting scrapped though. I tried it for the first hundred or so runs, but it got too tedious for words.

Edited by Vizan Thalt, 14 November 2012 - 06:21 AM.

[Oda Shaidammoto]

from the book that is the real game 1xp for each survivor and thats it u dont survive u dont get xp thats how it use to be not by damage u did but by not getting blown up simple as that but if ur going to do it any other way it should be by damage and kills plus a small amount for been in the field and a larger amount for surviving simpl as that .
other then that i back vizan thalt.
oh and just got to say this game is misnamed mech warrior was an rpg its counter part battle tech was a strat game this should be called battle tech not mech warrior there is a fundamental diferance in how they where played MW= rpg /BT=fps so to the big boys who made the game that was your first mistake and now that a old scholler is able to get on i asure u i will correct all of them i am a GM of 26yrs EXP and i know system just saying. forgive the bad spells and horid gramer

Edited by shaidammoto, 14 November 2012 - 06:15 AM.

[Asmosis]

who in their right mind wants to sit and watch other people play for 5-10 minutes when you could be in a new game playing with a new team? I couldnt care less what the rewards are.

What they need to do is adjust the win/loss base rewards to mirror exp rewards. People *want* to win when grinding exp and will play properly to do so. Its more efficient to play a full 15 minute match than it is to suicide 3 minute matches (by enemy fire, not OOB) since you get 5-10x as much exp depending how well you play. If i've played a really good match and we lose, I can still get upwards of 700-800exp, without premium.

The motivator should be to play properly (i.e. not die on purpose) rather than stay in the game after they die .

If i die early (i.e. im scouting in my Jenner, run round a corner smack into 5 heavy/assult mechs) i really have no interest in hanging around. If its at the other end of the match though, 1-2 mechs left per side who are engaged in battle, i'll hang about and cheer them on. Rewards are an afterthought once you actually get your mech and get your elite skills.

Edited by Asmosis, 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Charles Seneca]

The solution is pretty simple. You get Cbills for every minute (or second - whatever) you are in the game, alive or dead. If you quit you get only what you earned up to that point.

Consequences:

1. If you die early on and quit, you will get few cbills for time in game, will get bonuses for damage dealt and kills but no team bonus regardless as to wether or not your team wins or loses.

2. If you die early and stay, you get full Cbills - enough to cover repairs and ammo. Plus a small bonus if your team lost or a large bonus if your team won.

Results

1. Suicide rushes followed by quitting becomes loss making in custom mechs and gives a minor profit in trial mechs.

2. Staying in game becomes profitable dead or alive and you really want your team to win for the large bonus - encourages teamwork and trying to stay alive.

3. You can quit the game whenever you want but quitting early in a dead or hevily damaged custom mech will prove expensive and quitting in a trial mech will not be very profitable - more profit in staying and playing properly.

Job done!

Edited by Charles Seneca, 14 November 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Thorn Black]

renahzor, on 13 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Replying to your own post to support your argument, and then to bump it for you, is stupid.

Huh? 0.o ...

[Arcturious]

FYI - you can change who you are spectating with the arrow symbols on either side of the players name (top left of screen). This allows you to cycle through who is left.

And yes, the devs have already said they are working on a system that potentially rewards people who hang around by providing only the rewards up to the point you leave. So if a cap happens after you exit, you don't get cap credit.

I imagine this will come with a small overhaul to rewards also to provide some "end of match" bonuses.

[Tyrzun]

Arcturious, on 14 November 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

FYI - you can change who you are spectating with the arrow symbols on either side of the players name (top left of screen). This allows you to cycle through who is left.

And yes, the devs have already said they are working on a system that potentially rewards people who hang around by providing only the rewards up to the point you leave. So if a cap happens after you exit, you don't get cap credit.

I imagine this will come with a small overhaul to rewards also to provide some "end of match" bonuses.

I hadn't read that. Thanks for the info. Sounds good.