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As i continued about lurking the forums i couldn't help but add another thought to this. Do all you 'the game is broken' - 'the game is unbalanced' 'wah i died because the weapons are OP' have your own 'thread maker' (that's a pun on match maker albeit a little flimsy) so your sure there is always at least 5 cry baby threads on the front page of any of the forum categories?
Some mechs are stronger than others (even mechs of the same type, i.e. compairing several differant atlases.)
Some weapons are more powerful
some pilots are better
war is hell
2
This Is Why Trial Mechs, And The Game In General, Is Broken
Started by zverofaust, Nov 11 2012 03:29 PM
95 replies to this topic
#62
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:43 PM
Most trial mechs are bad in MWO because:
1) Heat balance is off. If the TDK-7X Thunderhawk or MR-2V Cerberus were in-game, they would be beastly trial mechs because of the huge benefit the ROF increase relative to TT gave the low heat weapons. The only way to use the hotter weapons competitively with low heat weapons is to stack more heatsinks than in TT. Most mixed weapons builds people consider 'good' actually have far fewer weapons than typical TT builds in the same weight class. (Typical brawler Atlas is armed like a 60 ton Helios or 70 ton Shootist)
Trial mechs have huge amounts of wasted tonnage because they have far more weapons than they can support with their heatsinks. For example, the stock HBK-4G provably does 80 damage (the amount to kill another Hunchback) faster using ONLY it's AC20. The medium lasers are mostly dead weight until the AC runs out of ammo... which it does fairly quickly because...
2) Stock mechs don't have enough ammo.
In TT, 1 ton was your "I'll use this weapon to deal high damage early, or only when I have a really good shot"
2 tons was "This will last me most of the fight, but I'll need some secondary weapons to finish off any zombie mechs"
3-4 tons was "I'm shooting this thing every round until nothing out there is moving."
In MWO, experience shows that most people are packing a minimum of 3-4 tons of ammo for their main gun. So even though we're more accurate compared to TT because of pin-point aiming, for some reason (whether it's double armor, or the fact that rounds usually come down to 2-3 mechs left alive per team that need to get an extra 1-2 more kills) the current ammo per ton values aren't giving stock mechs the required longevity.
1) Heat balance is off. If the TDK-7X Thunderhawk or MR-2V Cerberus were in-game, they would be beastly trial mechs because of the huge benefit the ROF increase relative to TT gave the low heat weapons. The only way to use the hotter weapons competitively with low heat weapons is to stack more heatsinks than in TT. Most mixed weapons builds people consider 'good' actually have far fewer weapons than typical TT builds in the same weight class. (Typical brawler Atlas is armed like a 60 ton Helios or 70 ton Shootist)
Trial mechs have huge amounts of wasted tonnage because they have far more weapons than they can support with their heatsinks. For example, the stock HBK-4G provably does 80 damage (the amount to kill another Hunchback) faster using ONLY it's AC20. The medium lasers are mostly dead weight until the AC runs out of ammo... which it does fairly quickly because...
2) Stock mechs don't have enough ammo.
In TT, 1 ton was your "I'll use this weapon to deal high damage early, or only when I have a really good shot"
2 tons was "This will last me most of the fight, but I'll need some secondary weapons to finish off any zombie mechs"
3-4 tons was "I'm shooting this thing every round until nothing out there is moving."
In MWO, experience shows that most people are packing a minimum of 3-4 tons of ammo for their main gun. So even though we're more accurate compared to TT because of pin-point aiming, for some reason (whether it's double armor, or the fact that rounds usually come down to 2-3 mechs left alive per team that need to get an extra 1-2 more kills) the current ammo per ton values aren't giving stock mechs the required longevity.
#63
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- 218 posts
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:50 PM
Sarevos, on 11 November 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:
any assault mech is designed to be supported theyre not "tanks" per se but "Tanky DPS" lets put this in League of Legends terms... while you do an awful lot of damage to a target you can catch a fast ranged ad carry will simply pick you apart from a safe distance without your team to back you up, as you can easily be out maneuvred one on one
Why does one assume that people play such a terrible game as.... League of Legends....
#64
Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:31 PM
Targetloc, on 11 November 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:
Most trial mechs are bad in MWO because:
1) Heat balance is off. If the TDK-7X Thunderhawk or MR-2V Cerberus were in-game, they would be beastly trial mechs because of the huge benefit the ROF increase relative to TT gave the low heat weapons. The only way to use the hotter weapons competitively with low heat weapons is to stack more heatsinks than in TT. Most mixed weapons builds people consider 'good' actually have far fewer weapons than typical TT builds in the same weight class. (Typical brawler Atlas is armed like a 60 ton Helios or 70 ton Shootist)
Trial mechs have huge amounts of wasted tonnage because they have far more weapons than they can support with their heatsinks. For example, the stock HBK-4G provably does 80 damage (the amount to kill another Hunchback) faster using ONLY it's AC20. The medium lasers are mostly dead weight until the AC runs out of ammo... which it does fairly quickly because...
2) Stock mechs don't have enough ammo.
In TT, 1 ton was your "I'll use this weapon to deal high damage early, or only when I have a really good shot"
2 tons was "This will last me most of the fight, but I'll need some secondary weapons to finish off any zombie mechs"
3-4 tons was "I'm shooting this thing every round until nothing out there is moving."
In MWO, experience shows that most people are packing a minimum of 3-4 tons of ammo for their main gun. So even though we're more accurate compared to TT because of pin-point aiming, for some reason (whether it's double armor, or the fact that rounds usually come down to 2-3 mechs left alive per team that need to get an extra 1-2 more kills) the current ammo per ton values aren't giving stock mechs the required longevity.
1) Heat balance is off. If the TDK-7X Thunderhawk or MR-2V Cerberus were in-game, they would be beastly trial mechs because of the huge benefit the ROF increase relative to TT gave the low heat weapons. The only way to use the hotter weapons competitively with low heat weapons is to stack more heatsinks than in TT. Most mixed weapons builds people consider 'good' actually have far fewer weapons than typical TT builds in the same weight class. (Typical brawler Atlas is armed like a 60 ton Helios or 70 ton Shootist)
Trial mechs have huge amounts of wasted tonnage because they have far more weapons than they can support with their heatsinks. For example, the stock HBK-4G provably does 80 damage (the amount to kill another Hunchback) faster using ONLY it's AC20. The medium lasers are mostly dead weight until the AC runs out of ammo... which it does fairly quickly because...
2) Stock mechs don't have enough ammo.
In TT, 1 ton was your "I'll use this weapon to deal high damage early, or only when I have a really good shot"
2 tons was "This will last me most of the fight, but I'll need some secondary weapons to finish off any zombie mechs"
3-4 tons was "I'm shooting this thing every round until nothing out there is moving."
In MWO, experience shows that most people are packing a minimum of 3-4 tons of ammo for their main gun. So even though we're more accurate compared to TT because of pin-point aiming, for some reason (whether it's double armor, or the fact that rounds usually come down to 2-3 mechs left alive per team that need to get an extra 1-2 more kills) the current ammo per ton values aren't giving stock mechs the required longevity.
Stop talking sense. Start yelling at people to L2P.
You obviously need to Learn 2 Forums man and also you are a n00b.
#65
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:33 PM
Lonestar1771, on 11 November 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:
I love when people announce they are leaving but never do, and then complain because they happened to lose ONE battle.
Everybody loses every now and then. Take your licks and move on. This game would suck if the Atlas ***** and pillaged everything.
Everybody loses every now and then. Take your licks and move on. This game would suck if the Atlas ***** and pillaged everything.
Or they start talking trash after getting their butt handed to them.
#66
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:50 PM
Let's try to remember that this is a team game as well. One trial mech versus a legendary founder = light snack. Two trial mechs versus a legendary founder = challenge. Three trial mechs against a legendary founder = one dead founder. Don't be so eager to rush off on your own in a trial mech; stay with the herd / sheeple and your last a lot longer.
#67
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- 185 posts
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:54 PM
the only right thing i n this topic is, that the atlas-trial is crap.
every experienec player will aim for your right torso..so you will die after around 50 dmg...thats faster then any other mech in the game (except lights).. and the its too hot do be a real rival
every experienec player will aim for your right torso..so you will die after around 50 dmg...thats faster then any other mech in the game (except lights).. and the its too hot do be a real rival
#68
Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:57 PM
Lagavulin, on 11 November 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:
Let's try to remember that this is a team game as well. One trial mech versus a legendary founder = light snack. Two trial mechs versus a legendary founder = challenge. Three trial mechs against a legendary founder = one dead founder. Don't be so eager to rush off on your own in a trial mech; stay with the herd / sheeple and your last a lot longer.
2 founders vs 2 trial mechs = 2 dead trial mechs
3 founders vs 3 trial mechs = 3 dead trial mechs.
Just saying it is a team game is never a good logical point because it assumes that:
1. Your team are playing well as a team
2. The enemy suck as a team
You can only look at balance if you assume all things being equal including teamwork.
#69
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:48 PM
Virisken, on 11 November 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:
the only right thing i n this topic is, that the atlas-trial is crap.
every experienec player will aim for your right torso..so you will die after around 50 dmg...thats faster then any other mech in the game (except lights).. and the its too hot do be a real rival
every experienec player will aim for your right torso..so you will die after around 50 dmg...thats faster then any other mech in the game (except lights).. and the its too hot do be a real rival
#youredoingitwrong
oh.... wrong social network.
EDIT: It's okay to lose. No one will hate you if you do, and no one will care if you win.
Edited by Lonestar1771, 11 November 2012 - 08:49 PM.
#70
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:21 PM
I suggest a rename is in order to zverofavre
#71
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:15 PM
First mistake.
Second mistake.
I bet you my founders Catapult that you were just firing every weapon group instead of chain-firing... adding to your overheating problem.
Third mistake.
Overheating the in the first place when you dont have enough heat sinks.
Yes, its a trial mech. But it faild you because you faild to pilot it effectively. If your in a mech that runs hot... pilot it like a mech that runs hot. Dont blame the mech.
Fourth mistake.
Like the first, getting caught out in the open in close quarters combat against a mech that is twice as fast as you and equiped specially for CQC.
Fifth mistake.
Crying that the Atlas isnt the 'insta win uber heavy do nothing and win pew pew pew' mech im sure you were thinking it was.
zverofaust, on 11 November 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:
It begins as I move into the lake
Second mistake.
I bet you my founders Catapult that you were just firing every weapon group instead of chain-firing... adding to your overheating problem.
Third mistake.
Overheating the in the first place when you dont have enough heat sinks.
Yes, its a trial mech. But it faild you because you faild to pilot it effectively. If your in a mech that runs hot... pilot it like a mech that runs hot. Dont blame the mech.
Fourth mistake.
Like the first, getting caught out in the open in close quarters combat against a mech that is twice as fast as you and equiped specially for CQC.
Fifth mistake.
Crying that the Atlas isnt the 'insta win uber heavy do nothing and win pew pew pew' mech im sure you were thinking it was.
Edited by ebea51, 11 November 2012 - 10:16 PM.
#72
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- Little Helper
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:27 PM
IVe said this before. Its not that stock mechs (trial) are bad its that even in tabletop custom mechs are almost always better as stock mechs have built in weaknesses for fluff and balance purposes plus they are designed to fire their weapons every 10 seconds like in tt which doesnt work in mwo.
Stocks and trials need their own queue. This would fix people stuck in trials from getting roflstomped (i laugh at the trial atlas) and will allow groups into rp like mine an avenue for matches we think will be more reminiscent of tt.
Stocks and trials need their own queue. This would fix people stuck in trials from getting roflstomped (i laugh at the trial atlas) and will allow groups into rp like mine an avenue for matches we think will be more reminiscent of tt.
#73
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:33 PM
Keisuke Nagisa, on 11 November 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:
IVe said this before. Its not that stock mechs (trial) are bad its that even in tabletop custom mechs are almost always better as stock mechs have built in weaknesses for fluff and balance purposes plus they are designed to fire their weapons every 10 seconds like in tt which doesnt work in mwo.
Stocks and trials need their own queue. This would fix people stuck in trials from getting roflstomped (i laugh at the trial atlas) and will allow groups into rp like mine an avenue for matches we think will be more reminiscent of tt.
Stocks and trials need their own queue. This would fix people stuck in trials from getting roflstomped (i laugh at the trial atlas) and will allow groups into rp like mine an avenue for matches we think will be more reminiscent of tt.
I admit I pretty much just blow off every atlas' right torso first now. Even if it's not an XL engine inside I still take out half or more of its weapons so I can finish him off easier.
The fact that kills trials so much faster is a not coincidental bonus.
#74
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:39 PM
Even if he had a point about lights being able to take on assaults, if it were that simple in an equally-matched online game then everyone would be piloting assaults.
#75
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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:14 AM
A lot of people seem to be under the misguided impression (probably due to not actually reading the OP) that this was somehow a "oh he was quicker, Assault Mechs get owned alone by faster Mechs" issue.
It wasn't.
The Hunchback wasn't particularly fast, nor did he make much of any effort to try and zig-zag maneuver around me. I had no trouble consistently aiming at him.
The problem is due to heat I simply couldn't fire anything more than an MPL every 5 seconds, while he unloaded everything he had nonstop. I got a total of three shots off in the 20 or so seconds it took for him to slice through my almost full armour, while he was essentially standing in front of me giving me the clearest shot possible. But I just couldn't do damage. I could do nothing but helplessly sit there and aim at his deep-red RT and not shoot.
When an *Atlas* loses a straight-up brawl with a half-dead Hunchback while both are barely moving, something's wrong. This isn't Mechwarrior at all, not by any stretch of the imagination.
It wasn't.
The Hunchback wasn't particularly fast, nor did he make much of any effort to try and zig-zag maneuver around me. I had no trouble consistently aiming at him.
The problem is due to heat I simply couldn't fire anything more than an MPL every 5 seconds, while he unloaded everything he had nonstop. I got a total of three shots off in the 20 or so seconds it took for him to slice through my almost full armour, while he was essentially standing in front of me giving me the clearest shot possible. But I just couldn't do damage. I could do nothing but helplessly sit there and aim at his deep-red RT and not shoot.
When an *Atlas* loses a straight-up brawl with a half-dead Hunchback while both are barely moving, something's wrong. This isn't Mechwarrior at all, not by any stretch of the imagination.
#76
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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:19 AM
ebea51, on 11 November 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:
First mistake.
There were a total of 4 alive people in the match at the time. It was just me and him. So no. Not a mistake.
Quote
Second mistake.
I bet you my founders Catapult that you were just firing every weapon group instead of chain-firing... adding to your overheating problem.
I bet you my founders Catapult that you were just firing every weapon group instead of chain-firing... adding to your overheating problem.
So petition PGI to implement a way to trade over Mechs to other people, then. Wish you had something better than a Catapult for me though.
Quote
Third mistake.
Overheating the in the first place when you dont have enough heat sinks.
Yes, its a trial mech. But it faild you because you faild to pilot it effectively. If your in a mech that runs hot... pilot it like a mech that runs hot. Dont blame the mech.
Overheating the in the first place when you dont have enough heat sinks.
Yes, its a trial mech. But it faild you because you faild to pilot it effectively. If your in a mech that runs hot... pilot it like a mech that runs hot. Dont blame the mech.
Haha, are you serious? You literally can't not overheat in a Trial Mech so I assume you've never actually piloted one. Oh that's a hoot.
Quote
Fourth mistake.
Like the first, getting caught out in the open in close quarters combat against a mech that is twice as fast as you and equiped specially for CQC.
Like the first, getting caught out in the open in close quarters combat against a mech that is twice as fast as you and equiped specially for CQC.
You must be so good at this game to never have a faster Mech get anywhere near you when your entire team is dead. Please teach me how to be elite Mechwarrior pilot like you!
Quote
Fifth mistake.
Crying that the Atlas isnt the 'insta win uber heavy do nothing and win pew pew pew' mech im sure you were thinking it was.
Crying that the Atlas isnt the 'insta win uber heavy do nothing and win pew pew pew' mech im sure you were thinking it was.
So then you admit that PGI George Lucas'd the Mechwarrior franchise? Cool, thanks.
#77
Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:26 AM
zverofaust, on 12 November 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:
A lot of people seem to be under the misguided impression (probably due to not actually reading the OP) that this was somehow a "oh he was quicker, Assault Mechs get owned alone by faster Mechs" issue.
It wasn't.
The Hunchback wasn't particularly fast, nor did he make much of any effort to try and zig-zag maneuver around me. I had no trouble consistently aiming at him.
The problem is due to heat I simply couldn't fire anything more than an MPL every 5 seconds, while he unloaded everything he had nonstop. I got a total of three shots off in the 20 or so seconds it took for him to slice through my almost full armour, while he was essentially standing in front of me giving me the clearest shot possible. But I just couldn't do damage. I could do nothing but helplessly sit there and aim at his deep-red RT and not shoot.
When an *Atlas* loses a straight-up brawl with a half-dead Hunchback while both are barely moving, something's wrong. This isn't Mechwarrior at all, not by any stretch of the imagination.
It wasn't.
The Hunchback wasn't particularly fast, nor did he make much of any effort to try and zig-zag maneuver around me. I had no trouble consistently aiming at him.
The problem is due to heat I simply couldn't fire anything more than an MPL every 5 seconds, while he unloaded everything he had nonstop. I got a total of three shots off in the 20 or so seconds it took for him to slice through my almost full armour, while he was essentially standing in front of me giving me the clearest shot possible. But I just couldn't do damage. I could do nothing but helplessly sit there and aim at his deep-red RT and not shoot.
When an *Atlas* loses a straight-up brawl with a half-dead Hunchback while both are barely moving, something's wrong. This isn't Mechwarrior at all, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Funny I used this same trial Mech with relative ease over the weekend. I racked up a few less kills and I died a few more times, but trial mechs are for learning how to use a mech, save us from the repairs that learning will cause, and allow us to think about the fixes we would make once we buy our first Mech. You are also talking about an Atlas with a known weakness. The XL Engine. As a studied player you would have known Zvero that XL Mechs suffer in a Brawl situation. That is something a Shower Shoe needs to learn before they buy one for their brawler. A very costly mistake for most warriors.
#78
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- IS Exemplar
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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:35 AM
Well, i actually do not think this "trial-hate" is right and deserved.
All of those mechs are fun to play and have their use cases, especially this pack of trials that we have right now. i didn't like the pack before much
we have a decent stock commando. yeah, not that fast as it would be REALLY usefull, but still. you outrun everything despite cicadas and other lights and you do decent damage.
we have the cicada, fast as hell.
we have a catapult AS IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE (yeah, LRMs on such a thing are needed). it even is still usefull when you are out of ammo, with chain-firing those 4 med.lasers and the decent speed i managed to get some kills in.
and then we have the fatlas, with it's pros and cons all written out already.
so: why the trial hate?
All of those mechs are fun to play and have their use cases, especially this pack of trials that we have right now. i didn't like the pack before much
we have a decent stock commando. yeah, not that fast as it would be REALLY usefull, but still. you outrun everything despite cicadas and other lights and you do decent damage.
we have the cicada, fast as hell.
we have a catapult AS IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE (yeah, LRMs on such a thing are needed). it even is still usefull when you are out of ammo, with chain-firing those 4 med.lasers and the decent speed i managed to get some kills in.
and then we have the fatlas, with it's pros and cons all written out already.
so: why the trial hate?
#79
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- Elite Founder
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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:37 AM
I guess the OP has never heard of torso-twisting to spread damage and prevent the enemy from zeroing in on a damaged panel. L2P instead of spending your time wenging at PGI.....
#80
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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:42 AM
von Bremerhaven, on 12 November 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:
I guess the OP has never heard of torso-twisting to spread damage and prevent the enemy from zeroing in on a damaged panel. L2P instead of spending your time wenging at PGI.....
The above quoted user lacks sufficient intelligence to be worth listening to all other users should be forewarned!
Ewigan, on 12 November 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:
Well, i actually do not think this "trial-hate" is right and deserved.
All of those mechs are fun to play and have their use cases, especially this pack of trials that we have right now. i didn't like the pack before much
we have a decent stock commando. yeah, not that fast as it would be REALLY usefull, but still. you outrun everything despite cicadas and other lights and you do decent damage.
we have the cicada, fast as hell.
we have a catapult AS IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE (yeah, LRMs on such a thing are needed). it even is still usefull when you are out of ammo, with chain-firing those 4 med.lasers and the decent speed i managed to get some kills in.
and then we have the fatlas, with it's pros and cons all written out already.
so: why the trial hate?
All of those mechs are fun to play and have their use cases, especially this pack of trials that we have right now. i didn't like the pack before much
we have a decent stock commando. yeah, not that fast as it would be REALLY usefull, but still. you outrun everything despite cicadas and other lights and you do decent damage.
we have the cicada, fast as hell.
we have a catapult AS IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE (yeah, LRMs on such a thing are needed). it even is still usefull when you are out of ammo, with chain-firing those 4 med.lasers and the decent speed i managed to get some kills in.
and then we have the fatlas, with it's pros and cons all written out already.
so: why the trial hate?
because the atlas super heavy mech that moves at a snails pace and is supposed to be a damage tanking nightmare has an xl engine fitted and gets cored in about 20 seconds by a jenner.
The trial commando is a joke, its weapons are entirely unsuited to it and it's slow to boot and easy to murder with larger mechs.
The catapult is fit with very few missiles and due to the pathing over nerf they are worse than prepatch.
The cicada trial is 'reasonable'
Thats why the hate.
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