28 replies to this topic

[HeroicTofu]

I figured MechWarrior Online would be the perfect community to ask this question! If you all had the opportunity to Kickstart an actual Real Mech, would you?

If so, what would you expect out of it? Why would you want to see one?

If no, is there anything that would change your mind?

If you're on the fence, would (provided you hit a certain perk with Kickstarter) being able to sit inside the cockpit change your mind? A chance to actually pilot it?

[Catamount]

This is something I might throw a bit at, but not much, and I think that would go for others too. It's not that it wouldn't be cool, but it semi-defeats the purpose of kickstarter projects. When I fund a game, it's so I can play it, or if it's a film, it's so I can view it -both as many times as I please-; if I kickstart a mech, I don't exactly get to pilot it. You can't offer piloting to every one of the thousands of people who'd back such a project on such a promise, let alone for any real amount of time. So we'd be doing it to give something cool to someone else.

Kickstarter does seem to have a place for new technologies, so the idea of a proof-of-concept isn't bad in itself, except that I don't know what practical thing would be demonstrated here, beyond the fact that existing robotics technology can be scaled up, and we already know that, because it's already been done, and it's not a technology that this project would likely develop into a commercial product that most of us would be able to obtain.


I appreciate the thought, given the amazing demonstrated power of crowdsourcing, but I just don't see something like this being feasible or having any kind of real notable financial support. It's not like, say, Star Citizen which people happily tossed $50-$200 at in droves. It also seems like it would be extremely difficult to give a realistic outline of necessary financial support for, so coming up with a goal that would be reasonable and give a realistic change for project completion seems... problematic.

Edited by Catamount, 11 November 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[HeroicTofu]

Catamount, on 11 November 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

This is something I might throw a bit at, but not much, and I think that would go for others too. It's not that it wouldn't be cool, but it semi-defeats the purpose of kickstarter projects. When I fund a game, it's so I can play it, or if it's a film, it's so I can view it -both as many times as I please-; if I kickstart a mech, I don't exactly get to pilot it. You can't offer piloting to every one of the thousands of people who'd back such a project on such a promise, let alone for any real amount of time. So we'd be doing it to give something cool to someone else.

Kickstarter does seem to have a place for new technologies, so the idea of a proof-of-concept isn't bad in itself, except that I don't know what practical thing would be demonstrated here, beyond the fact that existing robotics technology can be scaled up, and we already know that, because it's already been done, and it's not a technology that this project would likely develop into a commercial product that most of us would be able to obtain.


I appreciate the thought, given the amazing demonstrated power of crowdsourcing, but I just don't see something like this being feasible or having any kind of real notable financial support. It's not like, say, Star Citizen which people happily tossed $50-$200 at in droves. It also seems like it would be extremely difficult to give a realistic outline of necessary financial support for, so coming up with a goal that would be reasonable and give a realistic change for project completion seems... problematic.

This is one of the reasons I'm asking (most likely) the biggest community of MechWarrior fans. I am trying to ascertain what would need to be offered to make Kickstarter a viable solution. But I'll give more information once more people see the topic as is

[aspect]

If I thought it was viable to get something close to what a real "mech" is, absolutely. However, as a mechanical engineer with some robotics experience, I feel I have a small idea of what would go into building a real mech and in my opinion it's simply not something that is a feasible backyard project unless you have bruce-wayne-levels of disposable budget. Keep in mind that the KURATAS "robot" costs over a million dollars and is basically a bunch of slow linear actuators with some wheels on the bottom.

This thing costs several hundred thousand and it's as much a "mech" as a steam locomotive is an F1 car:



I guess it's great if you want to slowly shuffle across a perfectly flat surface. That's not to say it isn't a really cool project, but calling it a "mech" is silly.

Welding together the structure of a humanoid-looking construct is the absolute easiest part of something like this. I think people forget that it's only been really in the past 10 years that we've been able to build robots that could walk successfully...and I don't mean AISMO stomping around with big flat feet and pre-choreographed motions in the 90's, but actual dynamic balance and managing momentum and center of gravity.

I don't mean this post as just a bunch of vague criticism, even though that's kinda how it's coming out...just explaining my motivation for voting "no", haha. I wish you guys all the best and again if I saw something that really looked like it could come together, I'd be donating in a heartbeat.

[HeroicTofu]

aspect, on 11 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

If I thought it was viable to get something close to what a real "mech" is, absolutely. However, as a mechanical engineer with some robotics experience, I feel I have a small idea of what would go into building a real mech and in my opinion it's simply not something that is a feasible backyard project unless you have bruce-wayne-levels of disposable budget. Keep in mind that the KURATAS "robot" costs over a million dollars and is basically a bunch of slow linear actuators with some wheels on the bottom.

This thing costs several hundred thousand and it's as much a "mech" as a steam locomotive is an F1 car:



I guess it's great if you want to slowly shuffle across a perfectly flat surface. That's not to say it isn't a really cool project, but calling it a "mech" is silly.

Welding together the structure of a humanoid-looking construct is the absolute easiest part of something like this. I think people forget that it's only been really in the past 10 years that we've been able to build robots that could walk successfully...and I don't mean AISMO stomping around with big flat feet and pre-choreographed motions in the 90's, but actual dynamic balance and managing momentum and center of gravity.

I don't mean this post as just a bunch of vague criticism, even though that's kinda how it's coming out...just explaining my motivation for voting "no", haha. I wish you guys all the best and again if I saw something that really looked like it could come together, I'd be donating in a heartbeat.

What would such a project need to show in order for it to appear to "really look like it could come together" if you don't mind me asking?

[Catamount]

Well, going with that Aspect is saying about engineering difficulties and high costs, perhaps you guys should start by trying to come up with a compelling concept.

Show us a very detailed design concept that actually shows what you plan to achieve, and then how you plan to achieve it, down to giving a detailed outline of how every part will work (what will power it? How will it move (hydraulics? pneumatics? electric motors?) How will it balance? (big feet? gyroscopic balance?) If it's a true walking mech, how will it avoid falling over when it takes a step? How will you control it (cables vs electrical control?), and then give a rough bill of materials, and how many man hours you can put into it over a given period.

This way we can judge:

A.) Probability of success

B.) Needed funds

C.) Likely timetable

Diagrams are best, of course, for outlining design details.


Before talking about anything else, at all, that would seem like the absolute first step.

Edited by Catamount, 11 November 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[HeroicTofu]

Catamount, on 11 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Well, going with that Aspect is saying about engineering difficulties and high costs, perhaps you guys should start by trying to come up with a compelling concept.

Show us a very detailed design concept that actually shows what you plan to achieve, and then how you plan to achieve it, down to giving a detailed outline of how every part will work (what will power it? How will it move (hydraulics? pneumatics? electric motors?) How will it balance? (big feet? gyroscopic balance?) If it's a true walking mech, how will it avoid falling over when it takes a step? How will you control it (cables vs electrical control?), and then give a rough bill of materials, and how many man hours you can put into it over a given period.

This way we can judge:

A.) Probability of success

B.) Needed funds

C.) Likely timetable

Diagrams are best, of course, for outlining design details.


Before talking about anything else, at all, that would seem like the absolute first step.

Before we can reveal some of the internal intricacies of the project, we need to acquire patents for our design elements. We've already built much of the framework and what have you, the idea is for a final push. We also have built increasingly larger, working, prototypes. However, that's beyond the scope of my intention with this post. More or less, I'm going for a general idea of how people feel towards funding such a project.

[aspect]

HeroicTofu, on 11 November 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

What would such a project need to show in order for it to appear to "really look like it could come together" if you don't mind me asking?

Well, if i was making an investment, I would be looking for things like:

-Specific project goals
-Team resumes
-Control system overview (flowchart)
-Structural overview (w/ basic FEA output perhaps)
-Simulated proof-of-concept demonstration (specifically, the control system...even a feedback controller mocked up in Simulink or something with a little 3d demo would be great)
-Small-scale real-world proof of concept demonstration (show me a little idealized mech on a table that can keep itself from falling over)
-Very generalized subsystem layout diagram
-Detailed budget
-Subsystem development timeline
-Subsystem testing timeline/milestones
-Prototype development timeline
-Prototype testing timeline/milestones

I don't mean to criticize again, but saying things like "we need to acquire patents for our design elements" before explaining what type of actuators you are using is something that would scare me off. Nobody is going to be able to rip off your design because they know you were using for example an ARM cpu with such and such gyroscope and use a 23hp mid-mounted gasoline engine attached to a hydraulic compressor for the linear actuators, or whatever. To me it just says "we haven't really considered a lot of the fine points", and for these types of engineering projects, the devil really is in the details.

If it's a "we are totally going to build a mech, but it's super secret except for these photos of some box beams that we welded together one afternoon" type of project, I'm guessing a few people would chip in a couple dollars each and that's about it. If you are able to put together a solid design presentation, I could see it attracting some significant 3rd party investment. Companies like general dynamics have put obscene amounts of money into things like this.

The key to successful crowdfunding is transparency...you have to make people involved in the process, even if it's superficial. The risk to your intellectual property is limited unless you have come up with some revolutionary control algorythm or a new type of actuator, and even then those portions of the design could be kept secret.

[xenoglyph]

HeroicTofu, on 11 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Before we can reveal some of the internal intricacies of the project, we need to acquire patents for our design elements. We've already built much of the framework and what have you, the idea is for a final push. We also have built increasingly larger, working, prototypes. However, that's beyond the scope of my intention with this post. More or less, I'm going for a general idea of how people feel towards funding such a project.

If you're waiting on patents you're still a long ways off then. Good luck, I wish people would pay me to work on my hobbies, too.

Btw, if you actually have groundbreaking designs and some kind of mad scientist working for you who can do something that other world class engineers have failed at, chances are that there is a lot of potential military funding for you to tap. I recommend finding some friends with security clearance.

Edited by xenoglyph, 11 November 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[Lunchmeat]

I would fund it, and when built, steal it.

[HeroicTofu]

aspect, on 11 November 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Well, if i was making an investment, I would be looking for things like:

-Specific project goals
-Team resumes
-Control system overview (flowchart)
-Structural overview (w/ basic FEA output perhaps)
-Simulated proof-of-concept demonstration (specifically, the control system...even a feedback controller mocked up in Simulink or something with a little 3d demo would be great)
-Small-scale real-world proof of concept demonstration (show me a little idealized mech on a table that can keep itself from falling over)
-Very generalized subsystem layout diagram
-Detailed budget
-Subsystem development timeline
-Subsystem testing timeline/milestones
-Prototype development timeline
-Prototype testing timeline/milestones

I don't mean to criticize again, but saying things like "we need to acquire patents for our design elements" before explaining what type of actuators you are using is something that would scare me off. Nobody is going to be able to rip off your design because they know you were using for example an ARM cpu with such and such gyroscope and use a 23hp mid-mounted gasoline engine attached to a hydraulic compressor for the linear actuators, or whatever. To me it just says "we haven't really considered a lot of the fine points", and for these types of engineering projects, the devil really is in the details.

If it's a "we are totally going to build a mech, but it's super secret except for these photos of some box beams that we welded together one afternoon" type of project, I'm guessing a few people would chip in a couple dollars each and that's about it. If you are able to put together a solid design presentation, I could see it attracting some significant 3rd party investment. Companies like general dynamics have put obscene amounts of money into things like this.

The key to successful crowdfunding is transparency...you have to make people involved in the process, even if it's superficial. The risk to your intellectual property is limited unless you have come up with some revolutionary control algorythm or a new type of actuator, and even then those portions of the design could be kept secret.

This is great feedback by the way. These are things that need to be known so that such a project can be presented and give confidence to the community that would help fund it. We know a lot of people have tried to make this happen in the past and a lot of people are going to be skeptical. As far as patent information scaring you off, I can understand that. We've funneled a tremendous amount of money and time from our own lives to make these parts, we don't wish for all of that to go to waste. Again though, great feedback

[HeroicTofu]

xenoglyph, on 11 November 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

If you're waiting on patents you're still a long ways off then. Good luck, I wish people would pay me to work on my hobbies, too.

Btw, if you actually have groundbreaking designs and some kind of mad scientist working for you who can do something that other world class engineers have failed at, chances are that there is a lot of potential military funding for you to tap. I recommend finding some friends with security clearance.

We do have groundbreaking designs and the patenting process is an expensive one. I appreciate the feedback

[aspect]

Thanks for taking my post positively...re-reading it today it sounds harsher than I intended. The whole "patent pending" thing is a bit of a hot button topic simply because it's a strategy used by a lot of people who have nothing to back up their claims and are looking to sell investors on a project and then use those funds to actually start the project. I don't mean that you are one of those people, at all! However, you can probably see how that type of language could be interpreted that way.

This is what I mean by a control system demo...this is a very simple feedback controller hooked to a pneumatic actuator that repetitively corrects the angle of the pendulum:



Good luck with your project, keep us posted on any updates!

Edited by aspect, 12 November 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[Clubs]

Unless I get I drive it for an hour, no.

[Catamount]

I've seen the way Clubs drives; trust me, you don't want him near it

[Clubs]

Catamount, on 12 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

I've seen the way Clubs drives; trust me, you don't want him near it

If you can't take a big stompy robot on the express way at rush hour then what's the point?

[HeroicTofu]

Clubs, on 12 November 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Unless I get I drive it for an hour, no.

So basically, if there was some kind of guarantee to be able to pilot it (for a given period of time), you'd be willing to help Kickstart it. *jots down notes*

[Shelshoq]

so you HAVE to call it a mackie though or its no go

[Clubs]

HeroicTofu, on 12 November 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

So basically, if there was some kind of guarantee to be able to pilot it (for a given period of time), you'd be willing to help Kickstart it. *jots down notes*

Depends on the amount someone gives of course.

Most kick starters especially ones that have high cash level options come with some perk for the investor/donator.

Finding doable reasonable perks for your whales is important IMHO.

[HeroicTofu]

Clubs, on 13 November 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

Depends on the amount someone gives of course.

Most kick starters especially ones that have high cash level options come with some perk for the investor/donator.

Finding doable reasonable perks for your whales is important IMHO.

Couldn't agree more. That's one of the harder parts is figuring out perks that make people go "I WANT THAT, I WANT THAT NOW." ... PGI's Legendary Founder's Pack comes to mind. Or Shadowrun Returns with it's Docwagon cards.

However, since this isn't a video game, coming up with comparable perks is more difficult. Being able to ride the mech is a doable perk however.