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Mechwarrior RPG: the edition wars


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#1 Karel Spaten

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:04 AM

I own every edition of the Mechwarrior/Classic Battletech rpg (including A Time of War). I've only actually played/ran games using the second edition and I'm well aware of its flaws.

If you were planning to run a Succession Wars era game, which edition would you use? What are the merits and flaws of the third and fourth editions? Speaking for myself, I really like the look of the random elements in MW3 character generation and the xp budgeting of AToW looks a bit daunting. I've heard some vague criticisms of MW3, but beyond people's objection to using d10s over d6s, I couldn't really nail down the problems they described.

My group are all veteran roleplayers, but newbies to the Battletech universe, if that makes any difference. I'm ... well let's just say I'm not a newbie. :wub:

#2 Felix Dante

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:31 AM

View PostKarel Spaten, on 24 April 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

I own every edition of the Mechwarrior/Classic Battletech rpg (including A Time of War). I've only actually played/ran games using the second edition and I'm well aware of its flaws.

If you were planning to run a Succession Wars era game, which edition would you use? What are the merits and flaws of the third and fourth editions? Speaking for myself, I really like the look of the random elements in MW3 character generation and the xp budgeting of AToW looks a bit daunting. I've heard some vague criticisms of MW3, but beyond people's objection to using d10s over d6s, I couldn't really nail down the problems they described.

My group are all veteran roleplayers, but newbies to the Battletech universe, if that makes any difference. I'm ... well let's just say I'm not a newbie. :wub:


I've played a game or two of 2nd and 3rd edition as well as ToW and I have to say, while character creation is difficult in ToW, it can be very satisfying if you get clear directions from the GM on character limitations/bonuses. (Specifically maximum character age/factions allowed/points/vehicle types allowed).

In ToW a GM has to have a clear vision of his game, needs to be involved with character creation, and know the rules as much as possible. You can't half-a$$ it at all. I also reccomend if you have access and skill for it, make characters (the base characters) using a speadsheet (Using such as Excel or Open-Office) just to help keep track of all the points gained and spent. It speeds things up considerably for those who want to pimp out their character to the last point and get tired of adding and subtracting points continuously. After all of that a character sheet should be fine for upkeep of any character from then on. :D

You might even want to consider making the characters yourself and then let the player's pick which ones they want to use, just so all you have to do is give the player's a basic (or more) background on each to get started all the quicker. :wub:

Have fun! ;)

#3 Dacadus

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:05 AM

I think the point is getting missed here, When you start a game thats gives the player the choice of what he wants to do with his character and the spec,s he will need to achive that goal, then the base or core rules that allow it will be just that ! a base to start from and not an end.
RPG,s have gone from four basic stats to tree,s that list every aspect of the game and tie up more time just to make a character then it allows
the player to even enjoy the game itself.
Some of the best RPG,s out now start with basic skills and then allows the player to tweak there character to fit there mode of play and the goals needed to get that new skill set to do just that.
The Mech world has always been the Mech pilot and his/hers Mech, and the level of skill they have in that Mech, and the skill,s they will need to eather get better in that type or the ones needed to move on to the next.

#4 Gigaton

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:09 AM

If you don't shy from learning a new system, Steve Jackson Games' flexible GURPS works very well with BTU (as it does with pretty much everything). Though there's the catch that you'd need to do some rules converting yourself for vehicular combat.

From what I understand (I don't do GM stuff myself) the task is not as daunting as it might seem since it is a universal roleplaying system and has wide array of books available for sci-fi settings.

Edited by Gigaton, 24 April 2012 - 11:14 AM.


#5 Karel Spaten

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:41 AM

View PostGigaton, on 24 April 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

If you don't shy from learning a new system, Steve Jackson Games' flexible GURPS works very well with BTU (as it does with pretty much everything). Though there's the catch that you'd need to do some rules converting yourself for vehicular combat.

From what I understand (I don't do GM stuff myself) the task is not as daunting as it might seem since it is a universal roleplaying system and has wide array of books available for sci-fi settings.

A couple of my players are very anti-GURPS, they don't like heavy crunch. I've got a ton of GURPS stuff myself... but no, I don't want to do the conversion. I once converted Battletech to BESM/Tri-Stat dX... never again.

#6 Ghost

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:46 AM

Character creation in 4th Edition is still a real head-scratcher despite all their efforts. Also they took out the lifepath system, which made me sad. I haven't checked to see if they have errata'd it yet, but they somehow made the whole "skill points translate into skill ratings" thing in 3rd edition even more complicated by turning the points into experience and attempting to unify it with improving attributes.

#7 Karel Spaten

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:22 PM

View PostGhost, on 24 April 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Character creation in 4th Edition is still a real head-scratcher despite all their efforts. Also they took out the lifepath system, which made me sad. I haven't checked to see if they have errata'd it yet, but they somehow made the whole "skill points translate into skill ratings" thing in 3rd edition even more complicated by turning the points into experience and attempting to unify it with improving attributes.

I get the impression that people didn't like the random elements in MW3. Now my lot, we all like WFRP so the idea of the character losing an eye in character generation is a plus rather than a minus. The life modules in aToW seem to make the process more complicated.

What I'm really interested in is how they play.

#8 Felix Dante

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:44 PM

View PostKarel Spaten, on 24 April 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

A couple of my players are very anti-GURPS, they don't like heavy crunch. I've got a ton of GURPS stuff myself... but no, I don't want to do the conversion. I once converted Battletech to BESM/Tri-Stat dX... never again.


You could try Savage World. It's a great game with simple mechanics.
http://deadlands.com...ml#SavageWorlds
Making it work with the regular tabletop game system would be simple enough I think too... :)

#9 wwiiogre

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:44 PM

Tried all the editions of MW, use a house ruled one that is mainly to allow us to do things in between battles as an asset to the merc unit, more than sitting down and doing a pnp roleplaying session. The roleplaying and non mech pilot skills are used in between games to gain, intel, make contracts, find supplies, find blackmarket supplies, do tech things and mainly to tie the battles on the tabletop together. So we have our own character creation system, our own rules for xp you get one xp for a successful battle, everyone that played that game votes and the mvp gets two xp points. And how those points are spent is upto the player. Once you have earned 10 xp points you go from a trainee to a green pilot, once you have earned 30 more points you go from a green pilot to a trained one, 30 more points moves you to a veteran pilot, 30 more points moves you to an elite pilot. Each time you move up a tier, you gain a special style skill that is an overall bonus and very specialized. It is appreciated that the person picking the new skill earned actually picks something that makes sense for the way they have played all those battles.

Example I used a Medium mech in every battle, I would always try out hard maneuvers pushing my piloting skill and usually pull off the maneuvers. I pick the special skill of Medium Mech Pilot specialist and get -1 on all pilot rolls in a medium mech. Another example is I have been using melee alot during the last 30 battles, when I advance I choose melee specialist and get a -1 to melee pilot rolls. Combine the two and you have a medium mech melee specialist getting -2 to his pilot roll during physical attack phase. Which can be a game changer and make piloting that Hatchetman that much more deadly.

Like I said, Andrew Mock is the one who came up with the above system and I am sure he used ideas from many places to put it together and with help from us players we have adjusted the system. I use the system myself with a few tweaks for my own games I GM. Even if they are one off games I like to get all the players to quickly make a character, and then I keep them for when they play again. Thus earning xp and having a continual player to play even if they are part time players. The continuation of the story of BT battles to me is the difference between MW and all the other tabletop miniature games that sim battles. It generally tries to make each battle count and how you survive the battle affects how you start the next battle.

It is why I love BT/MW over all other games. Its not just winning that matters, its how you win or even how you lose so you can go to the next battle. Instead of meta gaming and getting that kill, you got to think what will it cost me and/or my unit for that mad rush and the damage I will receive. etc.

chris

#10 Tadakuma

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:01 PM

I have both systems and I while I haven't run a ToW campaign yet I have to say that I prefer the 2nd edition. It is flawed but the time of war character creation system is to complex.

I strongly believe that if your character generation system is too complex it actually detracts from the role playing aspects of the game. You start to see the stats more then you see the underlying character concept. A flawed system can be overcome with GMing, but a game system that stymies roleplaying is a lot more difficult to over come.

Now if you have players who are intimately familiar with a ToW rules and character creation that will change, but given that I tend to run stuff for players who are unfamiliar with the universe and rules this is still a problem for me.

#11 Karel Spaten

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 05:03 AM

View PostTadakuma, on 26 April 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Now if you have players who are intimately familiar with a ToW rules and character creation that will change, but given that I tend to run stuff for players who are unfamiliar with the universe and rules this is still a problem for me.

I have exactly the same issue. I've successfully converted one of my players to the universe (his character concept is an ex-Maskirovka agent trying to disappear), but it's an uphill struggle with the others.

I think I'm going to run with MW3/Classic Battletech RPG this time. While the combat mechanics look a bit much, it's the edition with the most support (I think it has the most books written specifically for it) and my players really liked the look of the events tables. I've found some great utilities for the game as well (whoever collected all the life paths from the supplements into one bookmarked and hyperlinked pdf is my new best friend).

#12 Kell Pryde

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 06:38 AM

I have not yet played with 4th ed, but have lots of experience with 2nd and 3rd edition. I personally prefer the 2nd edition as the skills directly relate to how the tabletop is played ie: Pilot skill 4 in the RPG is pilot skill 4 for the table top game which makes going from RPG land to the mapsheets really easy. The bad thing about 2nd ed (in my opinion) is if you have powergamers they can easily cheese the system ie: having a rookie mechwarrior in the 3030 era have a starting pilot / gunnery of 3/3 which puts them as veteran/elite in that time period. If the GM puts arbitrary limits on skills it seems to make the game better as it allows for more progression. I found that the PCs who powergamed themselves to be awesome mechwarriors were crap outside their mechs, so they ended up outside their mechs a good portion of the time. I do find that it takes a long time to build up your characters skills in game which could be argued as a positive or a negative.
3rd edition does have fantastic character creation rules to really help you understand the history of your character, and / or where your character fits into the battletech world. I do not like how if you had a bad role you essentially gimped your character, but such is life. I also feel that the skill point system in 3rd ed is extremely clunky, and to be honest I skill do not quite understand it to this day. I came up with homebrew rules to help figure it out.
I hope this helps! I guess I need to get my hands on a copy of the latest edition though.

#13 Kell Pryde

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 06:41 AM

Apologies for the double post, but I forgot to mention I did enjoy using the character background rules in 3rd ed to help with backstory. This is especially helpful for new players to battletech.
But overall as game mechanics go I enjoy 2nd edition, and feel it is a faster / easier system.

#14 Karel Spaten

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 06:56 AM

I'm keeping mech combat to an absolute minimum (if it comes up at all) so conversion to Battletech isn't a major concern for me. I quite like the look of the narrative combat system in Mechwarrior's Guide to Solaris VII, so I'll work with that if I need to.

#15 Kell Pryde

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 07:08 PM

Huh, well you didn't say that. Although I find it odd to cut out the major identifying factor of the game. I would then say ditch all the editions of mechwarrior. In comparison with other game systems they are clunky, and there are many other systems out there that are much easier.
I know someone else recommended Savage Worlds, and I would like to second that thought. Their system is universal, quick / easy for players and GMs, and it is easily ported to any genre. If non - mech combat is going to be the primary schtick, and you as the GM don't want to spend too much time working on NPC stats for the adventures Savage Worlds is fantastic.

#16 Karel Spaten

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:05 AM

View PostKell Pryde, on 28 April 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Huh, well you didn't say that. Although I find it odd to cut out the major identifying factor of the game. I would then say ditch all the editions of mechwarrior. In comparison with other game systems they are clunky, and there are many other systems out there that are much easier.

I think the Battletech universe is far more interesting than simply giant robot battles. There are plenty of mecha rpgs (I've played them) but there's only one Battletech universe. What appeals to me about the Mechwarrior rpg itself is having things like affiliations built in without me having to plug them into another system. I'm not a huge fan of generic systems, though I understand Savage Worlds to be a very robust one.

#17 LincolnSmash

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:08 PM

Firstly, anyone who argues over d10s vs d6s isn't someone you should be listening to when it comes to whether a game-design is good/bad. :P That tells me they don't know much about actual game design/theory rather than just RNG systems (which in-and-of-themselves aren't games). So I really wouldn't factor die-type into whether or not one edition is better than the other, and honestly I'm not sure any edition of MW is so significantly different than it will affect the overall outcome of your campaign, even if certain aspects might cause minor inconveniences or bothers.

Secondly, what do you want your game to be about, in the abstract? I find Battletech lore neat and all that, but when it comes to tabletop RPGs, it's good to have a system that backs the group's creative goals for play (story, challenge, etc.). Having a super-detailed mecha system is cool, but that's not going to help give the game "oomph" if you're going to be focusing on elements of character and drama.

So like, if you don't care about story (other than it being a series of events/encounters) or having neatly balanced challenges for the players but just like the equipment lists and the technical details and how all that stuff goes "boom" when it collides, I'd say go for MW or some other system that focuses on that stuff (like One-Roll Engine Mecha).

If you want to focus more on elements of character and drama, I'd recommend using Starblazer Adventures (the FATE system) or The Solar System which include explicit mechanisms for encouraging that type of play -- both are merely toolboxes, so you can import any fictional stuff easily. Characters in FATE are made up of Aspects that define them rather than stats, ie, Han Solo might have "I know a few maneuvers" which he could use to get a bonus on a roll to avoid hitting an obstacle or a defensive roll against enemy fire while piloting the Millenium Falcon. There are also "stress tracks" (similar to damage tracks) which are used to decide whether a character is "taken out", which is interpreted as whatever the GM wants (a character only dies when the GM/group decides it's okay), and you can take consequences (ie, a broken leg) to reduce stress and avoid being taken out. The "FATE fractal" is the concept of applying these aspects and stress tracks to various scales of beings and organizations, meaning you can apply them to almost anything, including organizations and ships/vehicles, as well as story/plot related things. Your merc corps' actions might increase the tally on an opposing organization's stress track, bringing the game closer to some dramatic event on the plot stress track! There might be multiple stress tracks for a galactic organization's military strength, trade, etc. Play around these aspects is driven by a fate-point economy, which act like bennies, allowing you to utilize aspects (whether your own, or using an enemy's weakness) and assign bonuses, etc..

So while it may not focus on the teen-tiny details, you can still use the system to emulate Battletech well enough. You could assign aspects to your mech's technology to emulate how it works (an aspect like "Hotter than Hades" might mean your mech heats up quickly when attacking, which would be a great way to earn fate-points for invoking the disadvantage, which you can then use later to bump your attacks or advantages).

Really, FATE is super-easy to hack, and there are some great resources and hacks already available online.

For a more "fair challenge" type focus, I don't know of any systems for mecha, but I think Savage Worlds is a little easier to balance than most other games, if only because of the simplicity. Like FATE, there are tons of fan-hacks and resources available all over, and chances are somebody has already done a Battletech hack.

Edited by lincolnsmash, 29 April 2012 - 04:32 PM.


#18 Alphadeadone

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:44 PM

I find this to be to much of an open question.
How long is a piece of string.

I think it might be better to tell us a bit more of the players and systems they like.

I've done replaying in 4 different cities here and what people like is sooo different. Some people can't drag themselves away from 3.5. My next group would rather we didn't use to much dice at all and spent most of there time trying to wesel their why with talking.

I could use many other examples but it that's my groups and not yours.

#19 Gun Bear

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:31 PM

I actually really loved the character creation process of the Mechwarrior 2nd edition, it allowed you to create a character with history using very little effort and even though it didn't always create a character who was balanced with the rest of the group it made every one distinctive.

I just hated how simple it was to get killed in that game.

#20 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:06 AM

I only owe the 2nd edition (never played though), but I saw that the Field Manuals include life paths for MW3. Can those lifepaths also be used with the 2nd edition?





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