38 replies to this topic

[Calmon]

What we have in moment:

- DHS cools 2 times SHS in engine (because of the DHS bug, should be 1.4)
- DHS cools 1.4 times SHS outside engine

-> Can be changed to 2 times SHS at all!

What DHS makes horrible OP is that it also adds double of the value to the "Heat Threshold" as well.

This one I can't understand. Why is it so? I makes DHS to Quadro-HS effectively. Why is DHS or SHS influencing this Threshold at all? If we need this influence it should be the same, otherwise its like I wrote: horrible OP and SHS no option in any way.

[Urza Mechwalker]

That is NTO overpowered damm. The game is HORRIBLE with you overheating all the time! You should suffer with heat only if you are a busing of a mech with high heat generation. As of now you can overheat even with 2 medium lasers!

We do not have a trashold as in TT because most of the TT bonuses and penalties cannot be applied (liek to hit modifiers) therefore this part needs to be a bit different.

[Calmon]

Urza Mechwalker, on 12 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

That is NTO overpowered damm. The game is HORRIBLE with you overheating all the time! You should suffer with heat only if you are a busing of a mech with high heat generation. As of now you can overheat even with 2 medium lasers!

We do not have a trashold as in TT because most of the TT bonuses and penalties cannot be applied (liek to hit modifiers) therefore this part needs to be a bit different.

Think about it: DHS should be double of SHS. This is TT rule. BUT DSH in MWO cools double as much (in moment engine only) as SHS AND adds double as much to the heat threshold.

To translate this to a mage for better understanding: DHS doubles your mana pool and doubles your mana regeneration! This is completely unbalanced. There is absolute no reason to have it. TT works different (DHS are so good anyway). It makes SHS obsolete and leads to far more problems between trial mechs and DHS builds. All for no real reason!

The Heat threshold can be balanced in a way no question, but there should no dependency to DHS. At least no different dependency than SHS has!

Edited by Calmon, 12 November 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Asmosis]

where are the notes saying DHS increase the heat threshold?

serious question first time i've seen it stated

[Calmon]

Asmosis, on 12 November 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

where are the notes saying DHS increase the heat threshold?

serious question first time i've seen it stated

http://mwomercs.com/...heat-sinks-dhs/

Its inside the quote of the first post.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Calmon, on 12 November 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

What we have in moment:

- DHS cools 2 times SHS in engine (because of the DHS bug, should be 1.4)
- DHS cools 1.4 times SHS outside engine

-> Can be changed to 2 times SHS at all!

What DHS makes horrible OP is that it also adds double of the value to the "Heat Threshold" as well.

This one I can't understand. Why is it so? I makes DHS to Quadro-HS effectively. Why is DHS or SHS influencing this Threshold at all? If we need this influence it should be the same, otherwise its like I wrote: horrible OP and SHS no option in any way.

Heat threshold is not doubled. Since the Threshold is calculated at 30+#HS, your looking at maybe a 20% increase overall.

SHS build with 19 SHS = (30+21) = 51
DHS with 17 DHS = (30+(10x2)+(7x1.4)=59.8

Even so, heat is still very much an issue at these levels and shows every indication that DHS set at 2.0 across the board would not be out of line.

[Calmon]

Bubba Wilkins, on 12 November 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Heat threshold is not doubled. Since the Threshold is calculated at 30+#HS, your looking at maybe a 20% increase overall.

SHS build with 19 SHS = (30+21) = 51
DHS with 17 DHS = (30+(10x2)+(7x1.4)=59.8

Even so, heat is still very much an issue at these levels and shows every indication that DHS set at 2.0 across the board would not be out of line.

Well you're right. I meant it in a way that the "additional threshold" is doubled. And this is good enough! If both would add 1/Heatsink it would make SHS somehow viable on Assault Mechs. Situation in moment is plain: DHS wins always, Trial mechs are screwed. DHS don't need this additional boost.

[QuantumButler]

No it's not.

[Calmon]

QuantumButler, on 12 November 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

No it's not.

What do you mean?

[zhajin]

Wait i missed something, engine double heatsinks are acting as 2x???

did they really screw up that bad again? do we have confirmation of this?

[Jiri Starrider]

Urza Mechwalker, on 12 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

That is NTO overpowered damm. The game is HORRIBLE with you overheating all the time! You should suffer with heat only if you are a busing of a mech with high heat generation. As of now you can overheat even with 2 medium lasers!

We do not have a trashold as in TT because most of the TT bonuses and penalties cannot be applied (liek to hit modifiers) therefore this part needs to be a bit different.

Well, the bonuses and penalties could be applied (and I think they should be), but that would require an accuracy circle that could be modified by movement, heat, etc. and it's attendant bugbear that makes the crybabies scream. The Random Number Generator... Dun Dun DUUNNNNNN....

[Agent of Change]

While I can see this (the double effect) being part of the issue I'm not convinced it's the only worry they have. We can break it down into a couple scenarios assuming an actual value of 2 on DHS:

Only doubles the threshold and not cooling rate - This would largely not help out the high heat generating weapons, however the low heat generating weapons could fire for days before hitting the top of the extended threshold.... while it would allow for more alphas the slow regain would quickly reduce you to the effect SHS would have once you are close to the top of your heat threshold (probably not long into any engagement), any thing that went more than a minute or so and you wouldn't really have the effect worth paying for. Wouldn't be worth it at the current costs

Only doubles the cooling rate and not the threshold - The way heat is working right now on the ML/SL laser/LRM boats the doubled cooling efficiency would render them close to heat neutral (largely making the threshold irrelevant) where as the High heat weapons gain a good benefit (same amount of alphas but they will be less hamstrung by the heat they generate). Problem is it would push people towards weapons that are already considered dominant (ac/2's, 5's, lRM's, SL, ML) because heat neutrality would largely make the high damage potential of the bigger guns irrelevant. Potentially OP for low heat weapons while providing a disproportionately low bump for High heat weapon.

Doubles everything - All the the problems of both with out any real mitigation. This is the only scenario where high heat weapons get significantly better, however low heat weapons are basically on constant fire. It could be a draw whether or not High or low heat weapons get the best deal in this scenario but functionally heat ceases to be an issue for any one who can design a mech, making Trial mechs even more of jokes than they are under the current heat structure. Really broken, can't argue with the devs conclusion, even sight unseen.

Honestly I think the way heat is handled right now if part of the issue and the DHS issue is symptomatic of the larger problem. Unfortunately I'm having a hard time coming up with a better comprehensive system that both make trial mechs worth a damn, and can incorporate DHS as actual DHS without breaking stuff.

Edited by Agent of Change, 12 November 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Just to insert my opinion, I disgaree with almost everyone in this thread (as hard as that it to do).

1) Heat management MUST be part of the game
2) The heat scale increase does not seem to make heat management easier for DHs weapons. In fact I have not really seen the scale increase. Are you sure DHS count as 2 HS for scale? After all, the mechlab shows a DHS as 1 HS, not two.
3) I am able to run builds with ERLL now, which I could not do before, so DHS are working fairly well (with the engine HS as 0.2HPS and the rest as 0.14).

[dubplate]

Bubba Wilkins, on 12 November 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Heat threshold is not doubled. Since the Threshold is calculated at 30+#HS, your looking at maybe a 20% increase overall.

I thought one of the dev postings where they mentioned the balance of DHS was because it increased the threshold too? My understanding is that is one of the reasons they wanted DHS at 1.4 because that was the value it added to the heat threshold too and was more balanced with the game.

Any mech that I own that only has the base 10 heatsinks are eventually getting DHS for me, there's just no reason to not get them with their stats the way they are. There is a huge increase in efficiency when you have you base 10 and purchase double, it does seem a tad unbalanced to me but it is nice not to overheat constantly in my Jenner and Dragon.

[Urza Mechwalker]

Calmon, on 12 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

Well you're right. I meant it in a way that the "additional threshold" is doubled. And this is good enough! If both would add 1/Heatsink it would make SHS somehow viable on Assault Mechs. Situation in moment is plain: DHS wins always, Trial mechs are screwed. DHS don't need this additional boost.

DHS ARE supposed to be superior always!!! That is cannon and logical.

Trial mechs are NOT supposed to be competitive powerwise! If they were no one would even bother buyign other mechs. They already have the advantage of economical gain!

This game must give advantage for the ones htat a) play more or PAY to get there sooner. OTherwise it would not work as an MMO!


people need to stop with the illusion that trial mechs are even supposed to be able to compeat with owned mechs on equal numbers. If A trial altas had no disadvantage to a owned atlas, but is free and infinitely cheapr to mantain.. WHY WOUDL I BUY AN ATLAS??

[dubplate]

Urza Mechwalker, on 12 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

people need to stop with the illusion that trial mechs are even supposed to be able to compeat with owned mechs on equal numbers. If A trial altas had no disadvantage to a owned atlas, but is free and infinitely cheapr to mantain.. WHY WOUDL I BUY AN ATLAS??

You buy a mech to customize it for your play style or your groups needs, you get XP to unlock the pilot trees. I don't see why trial mechs shouldn't be able to compete at near equal numbers they shouldn't be canon fodder either. I think they should give each trial mech some piece of tier 2 equipment so they don't feel like they're always getting shafted, plus would give people a chance to use that equipment before buying it.

[Calmon]

Urza Mechwalker, on 12 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

DHS ARE supposed to be superior always!!! That is cannon and logical.

Trial mechs are NOT supposed to be competitive powerwise! If they were no one would even bother buyign other mechs. They already have the advantage of economical gain!

This game must give advantage for the ones htat a) play more or PAY to get there sooner. OTherwise it would not work as an MMO!


people need to stop with the illusion that trial mechs are even supposed to be able to compeat with owned mechs on equal numbers. If A trial altas had no disadvantage to a owned atlas, but is free and infinitely cheapr to mantain.. WHY WOUDL I BUY AN ATLAS??

First, DHS should double coolrate and nothing more.

Second if you think "superior" stuff should exist and should be plain better. What would be your restrictions? I mean in battletech new technology isn't on every mech but without restriction in MWO it would be! MWO doesn't use "Battle Points" like TT does to reflect this. Nobody will care on repair costs in few month, so this is no real restriction. People play to win or to have fun and usually do both with most effective stuff.

Underpowered means in MWO = non existing in custom builds. Even worse because it causes a problem: Trials have to use them and they are bad anyway. Push Trials? Sure! But now really nobody use, so why have it?

Edited by Calmon, 12 November 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Urza Mechwalker, on 12 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

DHS ARE supposed to be superior always!!! That is cannon and logical.

Since DHS are entirely a work of fiction, there's nothing "logical" about them not being a balanced piece of equipment. Remember also that TT stats are merely an abstraction of the universe, similar to how MWO is a comuter-game abstraction of the BT universe, so the TT stats of items being "canon" is pretty much moot.

Urza Mechwalker, on 12 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Trial mechs are NOT supposed to be competitive powerwise! If they were no one would even bother buyign other mechs. They already have the advantage of economical gain!

People should be encouraged to pay for the game because it's a fun, engaging game. Not because the game is insufferable otherwise.

Urza Mechwalker, on 12 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

This game must give advantage for the ones htat a) play more or PAY to get there sooner. OTherwise it would not work as an MMO!


people need to stop with the illusion that trial mechs are even supposed to be able to compeat with owned mechs on equal numbers. If A trial altas had no disadvantage to a owned atlas, but is free and infinitely cheapr to mantain.. WHY WOUDL I BUY AN ATLAS??

MWO is not an MMO. It is a competitive online FPS with a stompy robot feel. Being able to customize your own mech and gain exp are already great reasons to buy your own mech. Making the trial mechs worth using is *vital* to new player retention. If you simply make the new player experience *horrible* they're not going to stick around long enough to buy anything in the first place.

[PyroDante]

In the TT heat generation and dissipation are calculated at the same time, once per round. Because a round is ten seconds, and all heatsinks are set to cool in ten second cycles, they require a "buffer" between time shot, and heat cooled. In theory if you generate the same amount of heat as you have heat sinks in the ten second window you stay neutral.

If you do not increase the buffer, then those heatsinks are not given the full ten seconds to cool, and your mech shuts down when it would not have in TT. (Although if you had a DHS build in TT, it may be heat neutral while in MW:O it is not)

[Urza Mechwalker]

Calmon, on 12 November 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

First, DHS should double coolrate and nothing more.

Second if you think "superior" stuff should exist and should be plain better. What would be your restrictions? I mean in battletech new technology isn't on every mech but without restriction in MWO it would be! MWO doesn't use "Battle Points" like TT does to reflect this. Nobody will care on repair costs in few month, so this is no real restriction. People play to win or to have fun and usually do both with most effective stuff.

Underpowered means in MWO = non existing in custom builds. Even worse because it causes a problem: Trials have to use them and they are bad anyway. Push Trials? Sure! But now really nobody use, so why have it?

Battle value eventually will have to be implemented in the form of a match maker. That is even present in the main competitor (no not hawken.. but World of tanks). Better things are more expensive and are matched against other superior equipment. That is MANDATORY in the free to play MMO model . Otherwise there is no reason to grind, and with no reason to grind no reason for people to pay in order to skip the grind.

dubplate, on 12 November 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

You buy a mech to customize it for your play style or your groups needs, you get XP to unlock the pilot trees. I don't see why trial mechs shouldn't be able to compete at near equal numbers they shouldn't be canon fodder either. I think they should give each trial mech some piece of tier 2 equipment so they don't feel like they're always getting shafted, plus would give people a chance to use that equipment before buying it.

When more and more mechs are added we soon will start to have mechs that have t2 equipment on standard configuration. Eventually these will rotate into trail mechs. See no problem. What need to be done is to keep track of what trial mechs people use most and least. And when the game has enough mechs.. avoid the non used trial mechs into the trail rotation. That keeps everybody satisfied while keeping the incentive to grind.