77 replies to this topic

[Slyck]

Prosperity Park, on 13 November 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

SInce FFA and ES take up 14 slots each, you can't run DHS, FFA, and ES at the same time ...

I do in my Dragon. Plus an XL engine.

I think its fine. Just think of it as being meant to work as a second stage to ES for those few chassis that can fit it. Not every teir 2 option should be useful to every build.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Slyck, on 16 November 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I do in my Dragon. Plus an XL engine.

I think its fine. Just think of it as being meant to work as a second stage to ES for those few chassis that can fit it. Not every teir 2 option should be useful to every build.

I agree with you in principle, "Not every teir 2 option should be useful to every build." But I think that FF is a little too weak and therefore is not being used by the vast majority of mechs. I *could* fit it on a couple of mechs, and the weight savings could be put to use, but the cost associated with FF is too high for me to use it. If the cost of FF was drasticlly reduced, or it's effectiveness was increased then I might use it, but not the way it is now.

[Slyck]

I think that would be true of every option; if you improve the reward/cost ratio of any option you'll find more people will use it. So I guess the best question is how prevelent should it be?

[Heeden]

Keifomofutu, on 16 November 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

And having 5% of your tonnage more weapons and heatsinks isn't a flat out upgrade how?

You lose critical slots, for larger mechs it can be a liability.

[Heeden]

Vassago Rain, on 16 November 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

There's not supposed to be a need fo standard armor if you have money. That's how this whole 'someting's better than something else'-model works.

Unfortunately, FF is useless, and will remain so until it gets actual damage reduction. The in-game description is terrible, and reads like that's what it has.

It's not supposed to be a flat upgrade, it isn't a "someting's better than something else" model. At the moment small mechs like my Jenner like FF and ES because tonnage is everything, especially when I have so many spare criticals. In general as mechs get larger the criticals become a problem before tonnage so FF and ES become a liability and waste of credits.

I'd like to see a few tweaks so that, for example, FF saved roughly twice the weight of ES for twice as many criticals. That would mean pilots could choose nothing, ES, FF or ES+FF depending on the build they are going for.

[BlackSquirrel]

^

That it's suppose to be better in one aspect not a "must have". In large mechs they can't use it because they actually need critical for more weapons. Endo is the same way trade of critical for weight saving. XL is likewise similar; weight for durability + cost. Not automatic == win.

'Resists' will mean everyone WILL have to use it.

Quid pro quo

[Keifomofutu]

BlackSquirrel, on 16 November 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

^

That it's suppose to be better in one aspect not a "must have". In large mechs they can't use it because they actually need critical for more weapons. Endo is the same way trade of critical for weight saving. XL is likewise similar; weight for durability + cost. Not automatic == win.

'Resists' will mean everyone WILL have to use it.

Quid pro quo

Endo and ferro do the exact same thing only endo does it twice as well for less cost and maintenance. In other words you HAVE to use endo steel over ferro-fibrous.

[Khobai]

Light mechs do NOT need another buff.

Instead of buffing Ferro Fibrous just nerf Endo Steel. That makes Ferro Fibrous more worthwhile without buffing Light mechs.

Endo Steel internal structure should have a massive repair cost compared to Ferro Fibrous. Id say at least four times more to repair endosteel internals than ferro fibrous armor. So the main advantage to using ferro fibrous would be that you save c-bills on repairs.

Edited by Khobai, 16 November 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[Clay Pigeon]

No nerfs.

[BlackSquirrel]

Keifomofutu, on 16 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Endo and ferro do the exact same thing only endo does it twice as well for less cost and maintenance. In other words you HAVE to use endo steel over ferro-fibrous.

You dont have to use endo.. It's only for weight saving not damage mitigation, speed, etc. If you need criticals you wont use it. only difference is endo v FF is that FF is going to take way more punishment.. Thus more associative cost. If you add resistances FF will be required to compete. As is now the upgrades aren't required to compete. They only help in customization. (Unless you need criticals) Technically you could get the same results by using an XL or dropping something. But there is no DIRECT disadvantage to not using them.

A resist modification would be a direct disadvantage to regular armor. This isn't like some fantasy MMO where everyone is suppose to get the next tier or else you're not "leet". **** that gear grinding wow non sense.

[Keifomofutu]

BlackSquirrel, on 16 November 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

You dont have to use endo.. It's only for weight saving not damage mitigation, speed, etc. If you need criticals you wont use it. only difference is endo v FF is that FF is going to take way more punishment.. Thus more associative cost. If you add resistances FF will be required to compete. As is now the upgrades aren't required to compete. They only help in customization. (Unless you need criticals) Technically you could get the same results by using an XL or dropping something. But there is no DIRECT disadvantage to not using them.

A resist modification would be a direct disadvantage to regular armor. This isn't like some fantasy MMO where everyone is suppose to get the next tier or else you're not "leet". **** that gear grinding wow non sense.

False. Ferro fibrous does nothing for your survivability at all. It merely gives you armor that is 12% lighter than standard. Both merely free up tonnage only endo steel frees up twice as much.

Your max armor with either upgrade does not change. If you are going to post about the benefits of either you should at least know what you are talking about.

[BlackSquirrel]

X

Keifomofutu, on 16 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

False. Ferro fibrous does nothing for your survivability at all. It merely gives you armor that is 12% lighter than standard. Both merely free up tonnage only endo steel frees up twice as much.

Your max armor with either upgrade does not change. If you are going to post about the benefits of either you should at least know what you are talking about.

I was saying if you added resists to FF like others have suggested it would... Not what it's current implementation is. The whole point of this thread is about ways to buff it. I'm arguing against adding a resist profile.
Insert foot into your mouth and eat your own rude words now kind sir.

Edited by BlackSquirrel, 16 November 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Xorak]

I like the idea of reducing FF to 7 crit slots and lessening the repair cost. If it gives an actual buff, it will just become mandatory and people will be calling out to fix Endo Steel.. That said, a lot of builds don't even have 7 free crits, so it won't be a big deal. As it is, I don't even run FF on my Commando, and it only has like 4 weapons, and two of them are harsh language and ********. Does use DHS though. Which should only use 2 crits at 1.4x....

Oh seriously? I can't even say ********? Talk about ******** on the filters, it's not even a bad word.

Edited by Xorak, 16 November 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[Sennin]

I wouldnt "rebalance" anything. It is implemented as it was always intended to work. It has a niche wich is usually reserved for Light and Medium class 'Mechs that can Make use of Endo Steel + Ferro Fibrous. It offers the same or better armor protection for less weight. That is and has always been it's purpose.

[Khobai]

Quote

I like the idea of reducing FF to 7 crit slots and lessening the repair cost.

Then clan FF has no real advantage over IS FF... the main advantage of clan endosteel and FF is that they only take up 7 crits (clan FF is also 20% instead of 12%).

[Tuhalu]

Khobai, on 16 November 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Then clan FF has no real advantage over IS FF... the main advantage of clan endosteel and FF is that they only take up 7 crits (clan FF is also 20% instead of 12%).

Having 20% instead of 12% more armor per ton is plenty of advantage for the clans, but even then nobody will take it over Endo-Steel if they are critical limited because it's the weaker investment.

[Tuhalu]

BlightFang, on 16 November 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

A few extra tons from endosteel can give you 10% or much more dps increase or a few tons more armor that you couldn't weight in before(which could be 30% more armor or more) or a few tons of ammo which could double your damage potential. DPS would kill the enemy faster increasing your survivability. Having 30%+ armor > 12% max armor which you would put at the expense of weapons(due to weight). Having more damage potential would let you kill more enemies toward the end of the game where-as your opponents might be out of ammo (free kills).

If you don't already have very close to your maximum armor, on every mech you are doing it wrong. It's great to have extra weapons and heat sinks, but they only last until someone shoots them off. Having less armor makes that happen earlier in the fight. And then you are gimping around without a leg or half your weapons while the guy with full armor runs amok.

10% more tonnage to spend on weapons (most larger mechs have about half their tonnage in weapon loadout) will not make you do 10% more dps. Past a certain point, you have to spend twice as much tonnage on heat sinks as you do on weapons and you run out of hard-points, so any changes to your loadout are weapon upgrades which tend to double or triple the weight of your weapon for a small damage upgrade and a large heat and range upgrade. The extra range does have a practical effect on your real dps, but only if you can stay at range.

[BlightFang]

Tuhalu, on 16 November 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

If you don't already have very close to your maximum armor, on every mech you are doing it wrong. It's great to have extra weapons and heat sinks, but they only last until someone shoots them off. Having less armor makes that happen earlier in the fight. And then you are gimping around without a leg or half your weapons while the guy with full armor runs amok.

10% more tonnage to spend on weapons (most larger mechs have about half their tonnage in weapon loadout) will not make you do 10% more dps. Past a certain point, you have to spend twice as much tonnage on heat sinks as you do on weapons and you run out of hard-points, so any changes to your loadout are weapon upgrades which tend to double or triple the weight of your weapon for a small damage upgrade and a large heat and range upgrade. The extra range does have a practical effect on your real dps, but only if you can stay at range.

I use mainly Jenner since I'm kinda poor. I have a catapult, but I don't have enough to put an XL engine on it yet. I bought a slow standard engine to try out dual gausses on it, but its quite... umm.. slow.

So here is an example for Jenner. Not that great of a build for it, but I'm just using an example to show my point. A Jenner with XL300 engine has around 8 tons free without ES and around 10 tons with ES. At 8 tons you can put on 4 medium pulse lasers which generate around 1.33 HPS(heat per second) each for a total of 5.32 HPS. Dual Heatsinks is a must on an energy light and XL300 comes with 10 internal heatsinks. Internal dhs gives 0.2HPS each for total of 2 HPS.

So with this setup, you have 2/5.32 HPS uptime after you max out your heat which equals 37.6% uptime.

If you add two extra external heatsink at .14HS each, you have 2.28 HPS total or 2.28/5.32 = 42.9% uptime.

42.9/37.6 = 14.1% increase in uptime which should translate to around similar increase to your overall dps. Also, on my catapult, a few tons can easily make the difference between 1 gauss and 2 gauss which i'd say can have quite an impact on the performance of a gausspult.

I don't have any assaults or any other variations of heavy mechs so you may be correct about dps increase being less than 10% in various cases, especially on atlases which get upwards of 50ish tons. But from my experience so far on various loads with Jenner and Catapult, it easily grants 10%+ dps increase.