65 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

Lin Shai, on 14 November 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

It used to be a lot more fun.

Unfortunately that can be said of many things, in this game, currently.

[Creepy]

Lin Shai, on 14 November 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Unfortunately this is a side effect of lights being "easy mode" currently with the horrid netcode and hit detection coupled with no knockdowns ::sigh::

It used to be a lot more fun.

Knock down was getting a bit silly and certainly could use some expansion. Maybe glancing impacts would help some..

[Asmosis]

bad idea. you immediately put your team at a 1 man disadvantage, and your lone heavy/assult mech "gaurding" the base is about to get ripped apart by the other teams light mechs because while you might be able to defend the base, you can't defend yourself.

Unless your a streakcat, in which case guarding the base is hilarious fun (or maybe still is, i presume ssrms are still as effective vs light mechs).

[Lin Shai]

Creepy, on 14 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Knock down was getting a bit silly and certainly could use some expansion. Maybe glancing impacts would help some..

Say what you want, it kept lights in check.

The bad light pilots would complain about getting tackled and alpha'd ... the good ones would never put themselves in that position. Unless they made a mistake in which case ... they'd acknowledge the mistake and laugh it off.

It's made my Jenner about 10x easier to pilot.

[Creepy]

Lin Shai, on 14 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Say what you want, it kept lights in check.

The bad light pilots would complain about getting tackled and alpha'd ... the good ones would never put themselves in that position. Unless they made a mistake in which case ... they'd acknowledge the mistake and laugh it off.

It's made my Jenner about 10x easier to pilot.

It did but it also made for great trolling at one point with Dragons that just went around tackling everything. Lack of knockdown didn't just benefit the lights. It increased my survival rate significantly in close shootouts, which I get into often enough as a brawling Hunchback.

At any rate, it is what it is and maybe some day we'll see it come back along with some punching and kicking action. Maybe some DFA love

[Zynk]

CoolLew, on 14 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Quick question to you veterans out there.
Is it a good idea for someone to stay behind and do the un-glorious job of guarding the base?
I hate it when the group sticks together and is winning by "kills" then we loose the match because someone ran around and captured the base.
However, I can see that it would be a boring job a lot of times...

If you have fast movers Jenner/Cicada that can run back and get on cap to stop them from capping while your team caps/returns a guard is not needed but with no fast movers you need missile boat Cat/Atlas that can support the push and return to base if needed.

[Onyx Rain]

RAM, on 14 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

The simple fact of the matter is that if there truly was ‘no reason’ there would not be threads like this. In addition all the ‘I hate cappers’ threads clearly indicate that people are not properly defending.

Now I will be the first to concede that ideally it should be fast movers RTB to prevent caps, but time and time again it simply does not happen – and this is before considering that not all teams are going to have mechs capable of responding adequately to begin with.

There are also other tasks that can carried out at the same time as defending: Direct & Indirect support being good examples as well as Commanding.

Finally, you should always have a reserve and this function can be fulfilled by the defender.


RAM
ELH

I think it is a natural instinct for people to think this is a good strategy but OVERALL it is not optimal.

So I disagree, and say...

Generally no...it works out well sometimes if the rest of your team otherwise fails to respond quickly like they should, but it is not optimal to have one or more of your mechs out of the fight when the other team will very likely have all of their mechs in the fight.

You're basically building a strategy around expecting the rest of your team to fail....so whether or not a base guard is a good idea tends to depend on how likely it is your team will fail. In Pug matches where many go rambo, or the team divides and tries to implement 2 different plans of attack at the same time without coordination and people are more likely to pass the buck and think it is someone else's job to go back...it can save you, but usually won't.

One possible exception is if for whatever reason your team chooses to, or is forced to fight really far away from your base....especially if that location isn't between the enemy and your base...like it is off to the side of the map. (This also tends to be a bad plan unless it is part of a coordinated feint maneuver)

Example:
I see a lot of times a drop commander or who ever is kinda leading on frozen city (when starting on the low side of the map in the city area with tunnel entrance to your right) will drag their team all the way out into the ice fields instead of fighting at the drop ship, or around D4....when they do that they make it extremely easy for a scout or someone to entirely bypass the main conflict and go straight to their base, also if to many of them are that far out they can't get back to the cap in time to stop it, or have the time to get the necessary amount of force there to defend the cap before the 1 or 2 that did make it back get killed by a larger force.

I've seen this strategy fail for these reasons over and over...and there is basically no reason to drag the fight out there when you could just fight at dropship and/or D4 while watching the side tunnel and be close enough to get back to your base in time. When it works it is only because the other team was significantly less skilled then yours...or you just get lucky.

It is everyone's responsibility to either go back to base if they are closest/fastest or at least get on coms/chat and find out who is going so they know it is taken care of. When this fails and the force that does reach your base isn't very large/skilled/or already significantly damaged a base defender can pull your butt out of the fire...but you should have avoided needing him there in the first place. That is best accomplished by having him/her fighting with you to ensure numerical/fire superiority at every turn.

Base defense is best accomplished by not needing to defend your base...that is best accomplished by having everyone fighting effectively...a base defender is a sign you expect to fail at this, and probably will....and usually they fail too.

Another possible exception is if you are focused on simply trying to out cap to win and not actually out fighting the enemy team...then a base defender can hold up the cap, and probably sacrifice themselves to help ensure the rest of you have time to cap. This only tends to be consistently effective though when you can get everyone on board with the plan and bypass engaging the enemy team on a large scale for the most part, or else it tends to fail because they out number you...and then overwhelm your base defender later....It is also a really not fun way to play IMO

Edited by Onyx Rain, 14 November 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[Lin Shai]

Creepy, on 14 November 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

It did but it also made for great trolling at one point with Dragons that just went around tackling everything.

Except ... they had fixed that prior to removing knockdowns. Dragons were no longer bowling balls.

[Creepy]

Lin Shai, on 14 November 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Except ... they had fixed that prior to removing knockdowns. Dragons were no longer bowling balls.

It's a temporal matter that we haven't scratched the surface much on but I consider the discussion kind of moot..

[Don Alosi]

If I'm using a light mech I'll nearly everytime RTB if I'm not capping, in the end the objective of the game is to cap!

[Onyx Rain]

Don Alosi, on 14 November 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

If I'm using a light mech I'll nearly everytime RTB if I'm not capping, in the end the objective of the game is to cap!

Meh, my objective is to win by utterly destroying the other team, and only capping as a last resort. I'll play to cap win if I'm in a merc group room and everyone wants that...but I prefer to fight in general.

Also there is a difference between being poised to return to base if necessary and having that mech fighting until then and having a mech sitting back at your base useless because something MIGHT happen.

Ultimately though in almost all situations the best overall strategy is to be ready to go back, send the closest/fastest 1 or 2...everyone be on alert they may need to head that way and not venture further away for the moment, get a report of what is on base and then react accordingly. A team coordinated team playing every match with the intent to go for cap and avoid as much fighting as possible is one of the few exceptions....then a base defender might be a good idea. Everyone needs to know and be on board for that plan before the round starts for it to be the optimal way to go unless you are lucky and can just seize that opportunity due to the random flow of battle or create that opportunity on the fly somehow. That happens sometimes but you shouldn't expect it to every fight if the entire team isn't knowingly working towards that goal.

[Carcass23]

I haven't heard much mention about slow moving mechs in this discussion. I do agree that assaults should be outthere keeping their namesake and while leaving a solo at the base is near useless, buying only a few more seconds of time perhaps so others can get back isn't completely brainless.

Too many games I see twitchy mechwarriors march off to whatever tunnel there is presumably thinking that no one would ever consider that plan, and figure they can cap without any reprocussion. The worst scenario is when its just one or two that do this, leaving the rest to fight what will likely turn out to be a losing battle. Then the proud unhit mechwarriors sitting at the enemy base cant seem to figure out why the enemy is standing on their base and the counter is going down faster. I see them looking around stupidly and I sigh and move on to the next match.

[Bogus]

I see both sides to this. A strong defense can often take one or more lag jenners out of action before they've done anything useful, but a strong offense can break the line so badly the lag jenners can't save it. Likewise, splitting the force can lead to getting rolled but everyone clustering up on the line can lead to all 8 of them just walking around you for the 15 second cap of doom.

[Don Alosi]

Onyx Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Meh, my objective is to win by utterly destroying the other team, and only capping as a last resort. I'll play to cap win if I'm in a merc group room and everyone wants that...but I prefer to fight in general.

Also there is a difference between being poised to return to base if necessary and having that mech fighting until then and having a mech sitting back at your base useless because something MIGHT happen.

Ultimately though in almost all situations the best overall strategy is to be ready to go back, send the closest/fastest 1 or 2...everyone be on alert they may need to head that way and not venture further away for the moment, get a report of what is on base and then react accordingly. A team coordinated team playing every match with the intent to go for cap and avoid as much fighting as possible is one of the few exceptions....then a base defender might be a good idea. Everyone needs to know and be on board for that plan before the round starts for it to be the optimal way to go unless you are lucky and can just seize that opportunity due to the random flow of battle or create that opportunity on the fly somehow. That happens sometimes but you shouldn't expect it to every fight if the entire team isn't knowingly working towards that goal.

That's why I said that I'll do it if I'm in a light, I do agree on everything you said after your first sentence, tho

what about capping while attacking? my general rule is usually to try to cap if we're losing 3 to 5 (or worse)

[Onyx Rain]

Don Alosi, on 14 November 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

That's why I said that I'll do it if I'm in a light, I do agree on everything you said after your first sentence, tho

what about capping while attacking? my general rule is usually to try to cap if we're losing 3 to 5 (or worse)

Yes...Capping while attacking is often good....especially if you can get at least half your force into the cap and they don't already have a bunch of mechs sitting in there or aren't so close their main force can easily come back in time.

Example:
One of the most effective strategies I've seen on river city is to run the G line, and when you get to the lower city you see what they have on base, or if any have dropped down to come meet you. Ideally you have a scout that tells you all this without you having to stick your own neck out....If they are stacked up in their base you camp and make a few come out. Usually there are always a few impatient guys you can weed out. At the very least you use your snipers/Lrm boats and anyone that can score hits on them from that distance to weaken them before you push, ideally killing at least 2 more then you've lost...before you push.

But what often happens is the majority leave their base and go upper city (The long way to your base, while you've gone a shorter one to theirs), over to e 5, or push the river. So when you see your opening the majority of the team pushes into the cap overwhelming what few defenders they have (If any) and then you fight from the cap...and win.

The biggest danger in this plan short of the other team just being utterly superior in skill is getting back capped as you push. That is why you don't push up to far until you're pretty confident you can steam roll whatever defense they have and get into that base. If that isn't possible in a very short time the trailing guys and/or your fast mechs will be responsible for going back to stop or at least slow down the back cap either before you all push or during the push. The fast guys should be scouting and letting you know what they are doing and trying to slow them down whatever they do by getting them to chase the squirrel or by defending you from a lone jenner or something trying for an early back cap. So basically all but your fastest lightest mechs have the intention of pushing to cap ASAP, and plan B of a straight brawl in the lower city below the enemy base... preferably fighting whatever come to meet them behind cover safe from lrms/snipers.

In this plan you are either in position close enough to defend your base, or you are steam rolling into their base...there is really only a brief window at best for them to do anything....unless you fall apart/hesitate during the push.

When done right it prevents the back cap and limits their options to either all pushing your base and hoping to outcap you when you've probably got a head start on that...or all filing back to their base to stop the cap. The reality is most times they'll split to do both...and they are screwed...and/or it will all be to little to late, and they are screwed

When it fails it is either because you pushed to early while they still had to many guys to close to base, or to many people get side tracked and don't stick to the plan, or those responsible for going back to prevent or slow your team getting capped utterly fail to go...or wait to long to head back.

The G line push to base, fight inside the cap plan basically only fails when it is done wrong (as most plans will)...do it right and it will defeat teams with superior skill in actual fighting pretty much every time. 2 things are key though and that is timing...and not exposing yourself to a battle of attrition with their lrm/snipers till you've knocked a couple mechs out of the battle. But if that fails, even then when the fighting starts it will be a fair fight...often though some will go rambo into upper city, river, or cross over to E5 and head towards your base so you'll usually have a numbers advantage against their defenders, while still being close enough to go back and defend base.

Edited by Onyx Rain, 14 November 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[Memory]

RAM, on 14 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Yes it actually makes plenty of sense. One mech can scare off backcappers and fight a delaying action if the EN base rushes. Of course fast movers should RTB to assist but fact of the matter is that they rarely do even when the base is being capped.

What is particularly interesting is those in this thread speaking against defending and yet never return themselves…


RAM
ELH

That strategy doesn't work so good if your mech is unrepaired and at 55% health. You've Also gotta be careful about those gosh darned pesky black screens.

Lin Shai, on 14 November 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

@RAM - When I see a team that knows what it's doing wasting tonnage with someone standing on the base "derpa derp - I'm guarding the base!" ... you'll then have a point.

Seriously. I love it when I see an enemy team do that, pretty much means we just won.

If you're a PUG playing against a PUG? Maybe ... the clueless factor cancels out I suppose? Even then if your team hasn't scouted and has run off in a random direction and doesn't know what the enemy team is doing, I sincerely doubt the lone mech standing on the base is going to be anything more than momentary target practice.

And if I'm a scout on an organized team doing my usual "Lets see how many I can get to turn around and go to base by stepping on it" ... you've just done my job for me and made it so I can go kill something.

There's literally no reason to ever leave one mech on the base unless you're not playing as a team ... in which case, you're probably going to lose anyway.

Send me a PM some time. Let's talk.

[Voyager I]

Leaving a guardian behind is dumb. If they enemy doesn't send a someone to the point, you're just leaving your team to fight a man down. If the enemy sends a stronger force than the defender can deal with, they won't know about it until they've already reached your base. It's a blind gamble that pays off only if the enemy does send a mech, but that mech is something your defender is capable of defeating that also cannot simply rejoin the battle.

Instead, be proactive. Most maps have two main routes, so send a scout to check out the one your main blob doesn't take. If they encounter a lone capper, they can deal with it there (or call for backup). If they find the entire opposition going for a base rush, they can notify their teammates before the enemy is sitting on the capture zone. The only drawback is that this requires a modicum of teamwork and scouts that know how to not overextend and die.

In pubs, your best option is just to be the light that deal with capping.

Edited by Voyager I, 14 November 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[RAM]

Memory, on 14 November 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

That strategy doesn't work so good if your mech is unrepaired and at 55% health. You've Also gotta be careful about those gosh darned pesky black screens.

If Memory serves it works well enough until the rest of the team reddits off and gets themselves killed… As for a known bug, hopefully that will be solved on the 20^th.


RAM
ELH

[Vassago Rain]

There are two ways to play this game successfully.

1) deathball rush to the enemy's red square. On overheat valley, this sometimes means you won't even see the other team.
2) setup a deathball defense in the middle of the level.

There's no reason to go back to your own base, ever. Better to rush your fast mechs into theirs, to outcap them.

[One Medic Army]

I run fast hunchbacks. I'm usually the first to volunteer to return to base (and typically die there when it's a large group of base rushers and someone needs to stand in the square).
I'd say don't sit a guy on base, if you want someone separated from the group to prevent base caps you'd be better off if he was keeping an eye on another approach, so the rest of you could get advance warning.