18 replies to this topic

[ackack47]

Why must I buy back my old armor/structure/heatsinks. I don't remember selling them. Most notably the Artemis. I just tried it for the first time for two games and I want to switch back. But I have to pay half a million CB to... not use it? It's one thing if I'm paying for my old armor again, but to buy nothing for half a mil? That is ridiculous. I'm sure I'm not paying some engineers to change the equipment out, or else I'd have to pay every time I want to change my weapons and paint job.

Is this some form of way to prevent people from switching back and forth between upgrades? What is so bad about that?

Someone explain please? Thanks.

(Btw, this is on my Founders Atlas, not sure if price is different on others for Artemus.)

[Frenchtoastman]

Good question. I have no idea why this is so harsh compared to other changes. It definitely has made enough people angry, and rightfully so.

[CommanderOSIS]

I agree kinda ridiculous penalizing you for trying something.

[twibs]

Well upgrades are more work-intensive to fit, but I too agree that once you've bought it, you should be able to switch back and forth, if not for free then at least for severly reduced price.

Also it might have to do with the fact that my catapult-K2 endosteel doesn't fit my Catapult-C1 or C4 variants. Perhaps a way to incut more C-Bill grinding.

[machinech]

Since this is NOT Tron: The Movie Online we're pretty safe in assuming that costs are purely arbitrary in nature. No virtual mechanics are doing squat. It's a move to either add enviroment, or to cut into cbills. In my oppinion, it's penalization to actually trying out new tech is pure *****. The mech labs current changes that penalize testing of any sort without paying cbills is rather...not fun.

[Big Bad Wulf]

That is because these are different systems thus cost money to change from SHS to DHS and back, same goes with SA to FFA and vise versa. Try looking up the mercinaries manual you will see the breakdown as well as repair costs.

Edited by Marcus Wulf, 15 November 2012 - 12:20 AM.

[Niberung]

You have to pay for this because it's an upgrade. The cost of the upgrade consists of the cost materials and the cost of work. It's an overhaul of your mech's internal systems. You pay this money for the "work" on your mech, not just for the actual components. And the work cannot be just stored away somewhere, it has to be done every time.

[John MatriX82]

If I remember correctly, devs stated that they'll be fixing this. I understand that some costs could be addressed because of the refit, but since they do not sell my default internal structure, nor my HS, nor my standar armor.. once I've taken the upgrade I should be able to switch freely between them paying what, 10.000 cbills? Not buying back standard or upgrade all the times!

[EnigmaNL]

It is indeed ridiculous that you have to pay again to downgrade. You don't have to pay to switch weapon layouts so why should you have to pay to switch between SHS and DHS or Endo-steel and normal?

It's just a cheap way of taking c-bills from players... I have an Atlas that's stuck with Artemis because I don't want to pay 500k to get red of it.

[vettie]

ackack47, on 14 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Why must I buy back my old armor/structure/heatsinks. I don't remember selling them. Most notably the Artemis. I just tried it for the first time for two games and I want to switch back. But I have to pay half a million CB to... not use it? It's one thing if I'm paying for my old armor again, but to buy nothing for half a mil? That is ridiculous. I'm sure I'm not paying some engineers to change the equipment out, or else I'd have to pay every time I want to change my weapons and paint job.

Is this some form of way to prevent people from switching back and forth between upgrades? What is so bad about that?

Someone explain please? Thanks.

(Btw, this is on my Founders Atlas, not sure if price is different on others for Artemus.)

Well, let me try to address these one at a time...

Structure - I agree with having to pay to go from one to the other and back. Basically this is the frame of the machine, EVERYTHING has to come off to make the change either way. You are paying for the mech techs time and effort to do this.
Example - you have a Chevy Truck. U want different, hardened frame installed. Mechanic says ok, cost be Crapload $. you agree. he does work. After a week, you say, i dont like change it back. He says ok, but its gonna cost Crapload $ to do it back. he is not charging for the OLD frame, just the time and labour to do the change.

Heat sinks - basically the same as structure, They are plumbed different. You want to go back, you get your mechs plumbing redone to accommodate.

Artemis is more or less the same as heat sinks, except here we are talking about electrical wiring and computer guidance. Even the missiles are different. You want, you pay to have the parts and the changes made. You now dont like and want to switch back? You pay to have it Undone and then for the equipment.

I DO agree that the SHS and Missile Racks and Missiles should revert to your inventory. They could then be used on other mechs or as replacements if one of your others get damaged or when you expend the missiles. I do not know if this happens or not, but I think it does for the heat sinks altho I am not positive.

[Frenchtoastman]

vettie, on 15 November 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Well, let me try to address these one at a time...

Structure - I agree with having to pay to go from one to the other and back. Basically this is the frame of the machine, EVERYTHING has to come off to make the change either way. You are paying for the mech techs time and effort to do this.
Example - you have a Chevy Truck. U want different, hardened frame installed. Mechanic says ok, cost be Crapload $. you agree. he does work. After a week, you say, i dont like change it back. He says ok, but its gonna cost Crapload $ to do it back. he is not charging for the OLD frame, just the time and labour to do the change.

But I can go into the mechlab and strip all my weapons and engine and armor until my mech is ONLY a bare frame. That costs nothing, as it should. So it's like bringing a bare transmission into the shop to get it replaced. You can keep the old, keep the new after paying and you won't have to pay for the part pull because you already did it yourself.

Edited by Frenchtoastman, 15 November 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[fxrsniper]

I completely agree once you buy it for that mech it should be yours, yes they could charge a small fee to revert it back but not half the purchase price. It is a little bit absurd pricing as well as some of the other cost like modules versus what we make a round adn I do a lot of grinding

[Frenchtoastman]

They want to charge ME for labor now?! I'm a mechwarrior dagnabbit! I'm gonna go the the local hardware store, pick up an impact drill, a battle-armor claw, and a set of scaffolding. Someone trying to charge me labor, pfft.

[Aegis Kleais]

Your Mech is being refitted to support that technology in its chassis. It's not a modular system, so once you can utilize DHS, you cannot utililze Standard HS. In order to revert back, they have to do work on your Mech to support that tech. It's not just a "This or That" solution.

Now, I agree about the penalizing nature of the Mechlab. There is no place where you can just freely build Mechs and try them out in a closed environment to see their worth. The game currently forces you to buy it, even if you then find out you cannot make a good loadout with it and have to revert back. The financially punishing nature of the Mechlab needs to be fixed and help make the user aware of the "Upgrades" system and how it works.

You're not buying blueprints to use either tech when you want. You're 1-time fitting your Mech to support that tech. This is why DHS/SHS, Endo/Standard, FF/Standard is not something you can choose from the LOADOUT section.

[vettie]

Frenchtoastman, on 15 November 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

But I can go into the mechlab and strip all my weapons and engine and armor until my mech is ONLY a bare frame. That costs nothing, as it should. So it's like bringing a bare transmission into the shop to get it replaced. You can keep the old, keep the new after paying and you won't have to pay for the part pull because you already did it yourself.

Ok. I understand what you are saying. (however you still pay to have the new installed and any little parts required to 'make it work'. and I believe that the mechanic will have built into his cost to you the cost of pulling the old trans out as well as the install of the new one you brought him.) If you took it back after a week, would you expect this garage to take the new out and put the old in for free?
To have the New frame installed, i.e. to go from standard to endo steel, there are modifications that occur to the actual 'shell', if you will, or body of the mech. These show up in the mech lab as structure slots.Once the frame change is completed, you now MIGHT be limited as to what you can install where inside the mech based on slot availability. these show as 'white' slots until they can no longer be 'automatically' moved as you add equipment or weapons.

You said this "But I can go into the mechlab and strip all my weapons and engine and armor until my mech is ONLY a bare frame. That costs nothing, as it should." AS a guideline, in the table top version ((from which this game was derived) you DO have to pay the Mech Techs to strip or add items (weapons, engines, armour, whatever) and on top of that, those things take TIME and the mech is not available to you until that 'time' has lapsed. In this game, they 'give' you 'free' mods and 'free' time to avoid delays and costs to keep player interested.

Specialized weapons or structures, heat sinks or engines even (XL) are expensive to xchange and to maintain.

As far as the armour, I am not do so in agreement with the extra cost associated with it. Basically, armour is plating attached to the outside of (in this case) a mech. You should pay to have them repaired or changed out to a more specialized (FF) armour TYPE, but i am not so sure why they take up to 14 slots within the chassis...

EDIT: Thanx to Frenchtoastman. you have kept this discussion very civil whether we agree or disagree. Well thought out statements without insults. Hats off to you.

Edited by vettie, 15 November 2012 - 10:04 AM.

[Frenchtoastman]

I think the 14 slots inside the chassis are (aside from balancing) because the bulkier but lighter armor will get built farther into you rather than stick out more and make your mech a physically larger target..that's how I'd mentally justify it.

As for my new transmission, I took the old out, of course I plan on doing my own installation too. I don't expect full resale value if I decide to get rid of anything (half price seems the norm), but I'd love the CHOICE to keep both and switch at will.

I remember games having mechlab costs just for switching weapons that you already owned, but can you imagine that here and now and especially AT THESE PRICES? Can you imagine the outcry? Maybe if I made more money per match after repairs, but right now I simply couldn't afford it.

[fxrsniper]

vettie, on 15 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Ok. I understand what you are saying. (however you still pay to have the new installed and any little parts required to 'make it work'. and I believe that the mechanic will have built into his cost to you the cost of pulling the old trans out as well as the install of the new one you brought him.) If you took it back after a week, would you expect this garage to take the new out and put the old in for free?
To have the New frame installed, i.e. to go from standard to endo steel, there are modifications that occur to the actual 'shell', if you will, or body of the mech. These show up in the mech lab as structure slots.Once the frame change is completed, you now MIGHT be limited as to what you can install where inside the mech based on slot availability. these show as 'white' slots until they can no longer be 'automatically' moved as you add equipment or weapons.

You said this "But I can go into the mechlab and strip all my weapons and engine and armor until my mech is ONLY a bare frame. That costs nothing, as it should." AS a guideline, in the table top version ((from which this game was derived) you DO have to pay the Mech Techs to strip or add items (weapons, engines, armour, whatever) and on top of that, those things take TIME and the mech is not available to you until that 'time' has lapsed. In this game, they 'give' you 'free' mods and 'free' time to avoid delays and costs to keep player interested.

Specialized weapons or structures, heat sinks or engines even (XL) are expensive to xchange and to maintain.

As far as the armour, I am not do so in agreement with the extra cost associated with it. Basically, armour is plating attached to the outside of (in this case) a mech. You should pay to have them repaired or changed out to a more specialized (FF) armour TYPE, but i am not so sure why they take up to 14 slots within the chassis...

EDIT: Thanx to Frenchtoastman. you have kept this discussion very civil whether we agree or disagree. Well thought out statements without insults. Hats off to you.

Then they need to give more money in a round than what we get because half price just to switch is 2-3 rounds just to get the money to switch, im not saying dont charge but half price is a little bit high in my opinion versus what we make.

[Jetfire]

Definitely needs a fix.

First Purchase of a retrofit: CB cost parts and labor
Subsequent retrofit: CB Labor cost only

As these are not simply weapons and armor it is reasonable to pay a ~50k fee to swap. However really there should be no fee's as they add nothing to the game but a poorly implemented cash sink. What next, storage costs on our mech bays and inventory? Licensing fees on our Mech's internal software?? Food bills for our mech pilot???

Edited by Jetfire, 15 November 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Mazgazine1]

yeah this whole "pay to downgrade" crap needs to go ASAP. It doesn't make any sense.

it should be a permenant upgrade for that mech. Each mech you buy, you can buy the upgrades and turn them on and off as needed.

its really inconsistent when engines can be moved for free, and kept as inventory but not a chassis?