35 replies to this topic

[Taryys]

Hmmm... there was an entire thread about improving or making FF competitive a few days ago...

Here it is:

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Vassago Rain]

Bluten, on 15 November 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

That's a good idea. If it gave my entire Mech a slight bonus to damage reduction; I'd probably start taking it over Endo. But currently my rides have Endo, not Ferro, because Endo gives more weight reduction at no increase to slot cost.

Ironic thing is that I was attacking Ferro almost immediately after its release and people flamed me for it; trying to say that it's equally competitive vs Endo Steel.(Despite simple obvious math) Funny that this is no longer the case and now everyone says Ferro is crap. I say it early, I'm "wrong", I say it later, I'm in the majority. My conclusion up front was that Ferro is entirely worthless unless you've already got Endo Steel+DHS and somehow still have enough slots left over for Ferro. But unless you're in a tiny Light Mech, that will never be the case. My Hunchback for example, with DHS+Endo at 50/50 weight, doesn't have enough slots left for Ferro; thus there's no reason to get it on him.



Another good idea. If it raised the max armor cap, it would allow us to add MORE armor than the default max; which would be great. I always want to add more armor but my variants are always maxed out in every section I want to add it. Most variants are maxed or near maxed by default so you can't add much.(if anything)

Yeah, they always do that, and pretend FF will somehow be good. It has yet to be good in any MW game, because it never gets the damage reduction it needs.

[Sp4wNers]

Thanks for all of your answers. Another question if You let me..

Is Large Pulse Laser better than Large Laser? I mean is it does more damage?

[Magik0012]

I have it on a Cicada, it's not worth the purchase price and the repair bills..

And, on a bit of a side-note, honestly all the "upgrades" should be a one-time purchase fee only.. I can swap major weapons systems and fusion reactor in and out of my mech all day long and the only time I pay is if I am buying NEW equipment.. but if I want these "upgrades" I have to pay to install and uninstall every time? If it wasn't a complete C-bill ripoff, more people might experiment with these systems..

I love (most of) this game, but someone needs to whack the designers at PGI across the nose with a rolled up magazine..

[Gemeinagent]

Well, use it for Community/Clan Warfare or in ladder matches, when every bit counts and price does not matter. I guess that as soon as you can have "official" Merc Companies in game, they won't have a money problem... At least, if they are moderately successful

[wanderer]

Sp4wNers, on 15 November 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Thanks for all of your answers. Another question if You let me..

Is Large Pulse Laser better than Large Laser? I mean is it does more damage?

Very slightly. What LPL's do is concentrate that damage over a shorter period of time- that is, all lasers are damage-over-time, but pulses take that damage and focus it into fewer "tics", meaning it's easier to deliver more damage to a single location. By comparison, a standard large laser is more likely to have movement (yours or theirs) spread the damage around or even lose part of it as a target moves out of the beam.

So when I'm firing my LPLs, I tend to have more of my damage hit where it wants to- the pulse laser is effectively more "accurate".

[Dakkath]

Culler, on 15 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

FF gives no extra protection. It just makes your armor 10% lighter. It's also incredibly expensive and it's the first thing to get damaged on your mech since it's the armor.

Technically this isn't true.

FF gives MORE protection for the same tonnage. Innersphere is 12% more per ton, Clan is 20% more per ton.

I don't remember the armor per ton formula but lets say:

1 ton of standard armor is 10 points on the record sheet. and no extra critical slots
1 ton of Inner Sphere FF is 11.2 points on the record sheet. and 14 extra critical slots
1 ton of clan FF is 12 points on the record sheet. and 7 extra critical slots

10 tons of standard armor = 100 points of protection
10 tons of Inner Sphere Ferro Fibrous armor = 112 points of protection
10 tons of Clan Ferro Fibrous = 120 points of protection

god i hope i did maths right this morning, else i fail.

[Sp4wNers]

Thanks for the answer

[Strum Wealh]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

None.
It needs damage reduction for this game, or it'll remain only on the most expensive and min-maxed of commandos, while everybody else ignores it.

Clay Pigeon, on 15 November 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

FF needs to up the max armor ratings by 10%

Both of these posts address what is the province of Hardened Armor (which canonically entered service with the FedCom in 3047).
More specifically:

• Each point of Hardened Armor can absorb two points of damage (implementable as a 50% damage reduction against all weapons).
  
• Hardened Armor consumes no internal volume (critical spaces) on a BattleMech.
  
• Hardened Armor negates the armor-piercing capabilities of applicable special munitions.
  
• Each point of Hardened Armor weighs twice as much as a point of Standard Armor (implementable as 50% armor points per ton vs Standard Armor).
  
• Hardened Armor may have a negative impact on speed.
  
• Hardened Armor is expensive (canonically, 15,000 c-bills per ton).

Examples:

• An MWO BattleMech's head could have the same degree of protection with 9 points of Hardened Armor as with 18 points of Standard or Ferro-Fibrous Armor, for the same amount of weight as 18 points of Standard Armor.
  
• An MWO BattleMech's head could mount 18 points of Hardened Armor for twice the weight as 18 points of Standard Armor, but have a degree of protection equivalent to that provided by 36 units of Standard Armor.

Rather than turning FF into a nerf/buff mess, 'twould be better to add options by implementing Hardened Armor alongside Standard and FF.

[wanderer]

Strum Wealh, on 15 November 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Rather than turning FF into a nerf/buff mess, 'twould be better to add options by implementing Hardened Armor alongside Standard and FF.

This. Hardened armor is probably one of the biggest defensive boosts in the game, though incredibly tonnage-inefficient and also causes speed reductions on 'Mechs as well.

If you an imagine an Atlas with twice the damage tolerance it has now creaking around like an old man, you understand how this stuff works. It gets to prototype levels by 3047, but doesn't really enter widespread use for a long time.

[Gristle]

And there are also these armor types yet to be implemented in MWO:

• Ferro-Lamellor
  
• Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
  
• Laser Reflective Armor
  
• Light Ferro-Fibrous
  
• Modular Armor
  
• Reactive Armor
  
• Stealth Armor

[WeekendWarrior]

Most of you are explaining this wrong to a Battletech newbie.

The easiest and most understandable way for someone who has at least a basic understanding of the construction rules i found this:

Standard armor gives 16 armor points per ton.
Those 12% "more protection" of ferrofibrous simply mean that you get 17,9 armor points per ton.
(double those values for MWO)

So for 10 tons of standard armor you get 160 points, for 10 tons of FF you get 179 points.
For only 9 tons FF you get 161 points of armor (always round down), meaning you get the same protection as 10 tons standard for less weight, hence the fluff saying the armor is "better".

The really important thing is that neither change the maximum amount of armor points a Mech can carry.
If you are below that limit, FF improves your protection for the same weight up to the limit only, if you at the limit already, FF simply makes your armor a bit lighter.


And there is absolutely no need to somehow "buff" FF armor, its what it is, and its been that way for nearly 14 years.
If you want a "better" version, wait for Clantech FF (20%, 7 crits), Light FF (6%, 7 crits) or Heavy FF (24%, 21 crits) down the road.
Or Reflective armor (halfed energy, doubled melee/area damage) or Reactive armor (halved missiles, can explode).


Adding something like 10% higher armor ratings or actual damage reduction to FF just to "make if worthwile" would simply mean this game isn't Battletech anymore.

Oh, and there are quite a few pretty good canon Heavies that use Endo, FF and XL.

[Buckminster]

Rather than increasing the amount of tech that is in the game, how about we encourage the Devs to get the base stuff done. I'd rather see a tutorial, more mechs, a training sim, and integrated voice before I worried about adding hardened armor.

[Imagine Dragons]

Dakkath, on 15 November 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Technically this isn't true.

FF gives MORE protection for the same tonnage. Innersphere is 12% more per ton, Clan is 20% more per ton.

I don't remember the armor per ton formula but lets say:

1 ton of standard armor is 10 points on the record sheet. and no extra critical slots
1 ton of Inner Sphere FF is 11.2 points on the record sheet. and 14 extra critical slots
1 ton of clan FF is 12 points on the record sheet. and 7 extra critical slots

10 tons of standard armor = 100 points of protection
10 tons of Inner Sphere Ferro Fibrous armor = 112 points of protection
10 tons of Clan Ferro Fibrous = 120 points of protection

god i hope i did maths right this morning, else i fail.

Technically, the way MWO is set up, it doesn't increase the TOTAL amount of possible Hitpoints on any given mech, it just makes the max armor weigh less...

Which IIRC saves ~2.2 tons on a fully armored Atlas.

[Taiji]

Jaded Jasper, on 15 November 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

I'm not sure why PGI even bothered implementing it.

I agree it's not interesting enough.

I think it should raise the max possible armor by 12% or whatever.

[MaddMaxx]

Here is the break down on ES and FF. (courtesy of a friend btw)

Standard armor 32 points per ton, FF armor 12% lighter about 36 pts per ton.

Tons..Steel..Endo...Save
20........2...... 1........1
25........2.5....1.25....1.25
30........3...... 1.5......1.5
35........3.5....1.75.....1.75
40........4.......2..........2
45........4.5....2.25.....2.25
50........5.......2.5.......2.5
55........5.5....2.75.....2.75
60........6.......3.........3
65........6.5....3.25.....3.25
70........7.......3.5.......3.5
75........7.5....3.75......3.75
80........8.......4..........4
85........8.5....4.25.....4.25
90........9.......4.5.......4.5
95........9.5....4.75.....4.75
100.....10......5..........5

Armor is a bit more tricky as the total points of armor you plan on having determines your tonnage of armor.

Armor Pts...Stand Ton...FF Tons....Save
50............1.56........1.39.....0.17
100...........3.13........2.78.....0.35
150...........4.69........4.17.....0.52
200...........6.25........5.56.....0.69
225...........7.03........6.25.....0.78
250...........7.81........6.94.....0.87
275...........8.59........7.64.....0.95
300...........9.38........8.33.....1.04
325..........10.16........9.03.....1.13
350..........10.94........9.72.....1.22
375..........11.72.......10.42.....1.30
400..........12.50.......11.11.....1.39
425..........13.28.......11.81.....1.48
450..........14.06.......12.50.....1.56
475..........14.84.......13.19.....1.65
500..........15.63.......13.89.....1.74
525..........16.41.......14.58.....1.82
550..........17.19.......15.28.....1.91
575..........17.97.......15.97.....2.00
600..........18.75.......16.67.....2.08

So basically if you want more tonnage buy the Endosteel. If you basically like your mech but want to hit the maximum armor point go FF.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 15 November 2012 - 10:09 AM.