90 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

LogicSol, on 15 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

It's actually 3 man premade v pugs.
4 and up go to the team queue.

Yeah, my mistake, but still could be exploited by the current means, all the same.

[Vermaxx]

LogicSol, on 15 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

It's actually 3 man premade v pugs.
4 and up go to the team queue.

That's crap. It means I can only play with two buddies, or I have to get lumped with another group of four and fight a real premade.

Two lances is still going to lose versus an optimized-from-the-ground-up 8 man premade.

Edited by Vermaxx, 15 November 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[BigJim]

Lefty Lucy, on 15 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think lots of pre-mades are going to stick with fighting PUGs when they find out that fighting other pre-mades is hard.

I sort of see your point, but any team worth calling a team will be playing other teams or doing internal 8v8s (the hardest kind of team), otherwise they can't improve, and thus become competition-level; And if they're not trying to become comp-level, then why be a team?.

The people you're talking about are basically just PUGs with comms, and they don't count as premades imho (not to insult them, it's a valid playstyle, just not what I'd call a "premade" team.

I know of the manipulations PP is talking about, but in my experience it's such a pain in the arse it's not worth bothering with for more than one or two matches, unless you're a really hardcore Troll-Team.
More fun is having people sync-drop and drop against you, so you can hunt down & kill your mates.

Anyone who plays in "evil premade ***-clown" teams won't be short of C-Bills or XP so there's no farming reason to drop vs pugs..

Edited by BigJim, 15 November 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[Vila deVere]

Lefty Lucy, on 15 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

I disagree. I find that both pre-made and PUG play is much more satisfying post-round1, due to increased chance to be on the same side as a pre-made as a PUG player, and increased chance to play against a pre-made as a pre-made player.

I just think that allowing the system to be so easily exploitable by people who want easy wins is broken.

Completely disagree. The tactics of the game are now far less interesting. I'm looking for forward to teh pre-made vs pre-made matches.

[Sandpit]

Lefty Lucy, on 15 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think lots of pre-mades are going to stick with fighting PUGs when they find out that fighting other pre-mades is hard.

Soooooooooooooooooo premies that have absolutely no control over who they drop against and randomly get put into a game against randomized opponents by the game's MM system intentionally make matches against pugs?
Come on Lucy, you KNOW that's completely false. Neither side, premies or pugs, has any control who they drop against.

The devs have already stated this is NOT an exploit if you use a timed drop to play with FRIENDS (because, ya know, some people actually like socializing with others who play the same game )

I have yet to be on or see a premie that just loves stomping the other side. Do you really think that doesn't get boring? I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of premades but most of what's stated here is just hyperbole and opinion.

It's just about been proven that most of these stomps have nothing to do with premies. Let it go. Most of the stomps happen because one side will have an AFKer or two, a suicider, a new player just playing their first couple of games.

This has NOTHING to do with the big bad premades hunting down poor little pugs. It doesn't happen like that because it can't happen like that. I can't determine who my opponents are going to be any more than you can.

It's time to stop with the "premades" sunk my "pugship" stuff.
Not to mention the second phase of MM hits next week.

I'm not attacking ANYone here, I'm just sick and tired of hearing how those who actually want to socialize and have fun and form a team on teamspeak are just evil pugstomping meanies. I'm tired of being ostracized for how I enjoy playing the game.

[Vermaxx]

I really wish they'd set up a separate server for "competition level" people so they could go fight each other and leave me alone.

I'm tired of seeing people find ways to beat the current premade locks (however rare, they're trying), or building a totally optimized team from the ground up. I can't compete in that, and I want a way to avoid it.

I don't see this becoming an esports title. Guild Wars 2 is trying, but you can do the 'competition' pvp starting at lvl 1 and you get a full set of gear optimized for your class, with the same equivalent stat bonuses as every other class/gear. MWO won't be. It will have some people who run "tournaments" somehow on a system not built for it.

Or, they could just get somewhere to go, like games with a ranked queue. Because I'm tired of hearing about how I need to be working toward an online scrimmage team. I don't want to. I want to group with friends (who never do, too busy with their Goons) and shoot people around my skill level.

[LogicSol]

Vermaxx, on 15 November 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

That's crap. It means I can only play with two buddies, or I have to get lumped with another group of four and fight a real premade.

Two lances is still going to lose versus an optimized-from-the-ground-up 8 man premade.

If I can beat a 8 man Premade in a pug(albeit not regularly) a 4 man lance can beat a 8 man premade.
Remember,
This is temporary

Phase 3 will improve match balancing so that it shouldn't be an issue at all.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Vermaxx, on 15 November 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

That's crap. It means I can only play with two buddies, or I have to get lumped with another group of four and fight a real premade.

Two lances is still going to lose versus an optimized-from-the-ground-up 8 man premade.

Except that such premades are very rare, limited to competitive clans; most teams you'd likely encounter might be composed either by two distinct 4-man groups or a 8-man group of casuals just like you and your buddies - there's no reason why this shouldn't be a disputed battle and entertaining for all players involved.

Vermaxx, on 15 November 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Or, they could just get somewhere to go, like games with a ranked queue. Because I'm tired of hearing about how I need to be working toward an online scrimmage team. I don't want to. I want to group with friends (who never do, too busy with their Goons) and shoot people around my skill level.

And this is all due as of the third and final phase of the matchmaking system overhaul (ELO-based).
Be patient.

[Darth JarJar]

Lefty Lucy, on 15 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think lots of pre-mades are going to stick with fighting PUGs when they find out that fighting other pre-mades is hard.

Ah, more QQ from the peanut gallery....
I got news for you, most unit based premades vastly prefer to play other unit based premades, not because it is easy, but because it is HARD! It pushes us to our limits and tests our tactics and individual skills. Also, it is a known and proven concept that you only get better by fighting people who are better, or at least, really test your skill and tactics. Most unit based premades have reached their developmental ceilings fighting pubs, and are stagnating there. The only way we will improve is through adversity. You are fooling yourself if you think we actually enjoy curbstomping pubs, because nothing could be further from the truth.

I will grant the caveat that this applies to the vast majority of units. Some units, who shall remain unnamed, enjoy trash-talking the pubs, and yuk-yukking, and trolling players in the forums. These are made up of certain individuals with a certain mindset, and are not representative of the playerbase in general.

[Dagger6T6]

Lefty Lucy, on 15 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think lots of pre-mades are going to stick with fighting PUGs when they find out that fighting other pre-mades is hard.

I think that is incorrect... I believe organized teams would much rather fight with their premade team against an enemy that can provide more challenge than what amounts to something akin to a turkey shoot. I think the vast majority of clans and merc groups are out to prove their superiority and to face a challenging target that can put their team skills and piloting skills to the test. While rolling over pugs is lucrative, it is seriously boring as ****... and also being saddled with random noobs that can't take direction or blend with a mixed group just further frustrates premade groups. So once teams are vs teams I think you are going to see some real battles and a real chance to test and see what works, and what needs to be balanced in both weapons and general aspects of the game.

[Qarnage]

Lefty Lucy, on 15 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think lots of pre-mades are going to stick with fighting PUGs when they find out that fighting other pre-mades is hard.

I think lots of teams will realize that fighting much more trained teams is hard, and that lots of PUG players will find out that fighting much more experienced PUG players is hard too.

Non-skill based matchmaking won't help being crushed by better players.

[Sandpit]

The funny thing is that every time something like this is posted you have numerous people in units and that drop in premies flat out stating stomping the other team isn't fun and isn't enjoyable at all.
It's amazing how premies are still a boogeyman even with the MM changes in place and coming in the near future

[MaddMaxx]

EJT, on 15 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

I don't think this is accurate. Premades of 4 or less will drop against Pugs. Premades between 4 and 8 will drop against another premade between 4 and 8. What isn't clear is what happens if you are exactly 4, because it seems that the description allows a group of 4 to EITHER drop into a pug match OR a premade match -- it's not clear which.



I don't think this is accurate either. Premades of 4 (?), 5, 6, 7, or 8 will drop against another premade of 4 (?), 5, 6, 7, or 8, and the sides don't need to be even from what I understand. A premade of 6 could drop against a premade of 8, for example. And the classes aren't matched either, so 6 lights could drop against 8 atlases as well, from what I understand.




Again, I don't think so. One of the devs specifically said that two premades of 4 could drop on one side and all pugs could drop on the other side. It's unlikely, but possible. And if you try to coordinate your drops, you increase your chances of it happening.

Nope, sorry. See all of the above responses.

I'm 99% sure I read all of this in other threads, but I didn't paste any links here. If you strongly disagree, let me know and I'll dig up the links.

Found this. It appears they have changed Phase 2 by allowing uneven Team #'s. Min is 5 though.

Quote

"Phase 2: November 20th

Pre-Made groups will be able to match against other pre-made groups.

• Min group size: 5 players
  
• Max group size: 8 players
  
• Class Matching: No
  
• Uneven Teams: Yes

[Taryys]

Stomping PUGs is not interesting at all.
I want hot pay-per-view premade-on-premade action and nothing more.

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

The funny thing is that every time something like this is posted you have numerous people in units and that drop in premies flat out stating stomping the other team isn't fun and isn't enjoyable at all.
It's amazing how premies are still a boogeyman even with the MM changes in place and coming in the near future

[Sandpit]

Taryys, on 15 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Stomping PUGs is not interesting at all.
I want hot pay-per-view premade-on-premade action and nothing more.

As long as it's hardcore I'm all for it! lol

[Poerisija]

Omigir, on 15 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Team work is op! even if half the group is not coordinating with the other half, its still op!

I say Nerf PUGs, they are 100% the problem of why Pre-Mades are so good. If I had 1 Cbill for every tim a PUG shot me in the back for suggesting trying to form a plan of action, I would own the federated common wealth

I noted your name up, will shoot you in the back if I see you in-game. Not because you try to formulate a plan, but because of your attitude. You do deserve it.

[Bishop Steiner]

first you complain until people who actually want to run a team game as....you know.. a TEAM, get screwed (short term) and now you want to complain Some more?

Seriously?

I swear you and Vassago won't be content til it's 1v1 only Solaris 7 matches.

And then you will STILL complain. Maybe the problem is that you just aren't very good?

Qarnage, on 15 November 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think lots of teams will realize that fighting much more trained teams is hard, and that lots of PUG players will find out that fighting much more experienced PUG players is hard too.

Non-skill based matchmaking won't help being crushed by better players.

and "skill based" matching is a myth, since there is no way to truly measure skill (Damage/KDr don't begin to tell the half of it). And only by playing superior competition does one have a chance to become better.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 November 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 November 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

and "skill based" matching is a myth, since there is no way to truly measure skill (Damage/KDr don't begin to tell the half of it). And only by playing superior competition does one have a chance to become better.

I have to disagree with this statement. You can take skill based on the ELO. Place a cap on the ELO for MM purposes. If your ELO is 500 then you only play others within a 100 point difference just as an example. That means you play people that are relatively close in skill level. I fyou lose a lot your ELO drops and you play with others of the same skill level again. Eventually you even out on ELO and get a good base rank that determines who you face in game. The more you play the more accurate it is.

[LogicSol]

MaddMaxx, on 15 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Found this. It appears they have changed Phase 2 by allowing uneven Team #'s. Min is 5 though.

That is the old info, here is the current post on the command chair

Quote

Phase 2: November 20th

Pre-Made groups will be able to match against other pre-made groups.

• Min group size: 4 players
  
• Max group size: 8 players
  
• Class Matching: No

[Operant]

Lets nerf the groups the groups even more. Lets have it so you can start up a group but cannot invite anyone else. That would give us a maximum group size of 1.

Then we can make all the guns do no damage. You could still use them for amusement but mostly you'll want a fast mech so you can quickly get to the enemy base and cap.

That would fix everything. No more whining about premades. No more whining about overpowered guns. No more whining about being killed.

Let's just base cap.