16 replies to this topic

[Doom Bull]

So I am a long time (ish) lurker, first time poster, wondered the mobs thoughts on a couple of things...

1) Firstly, I love the hunchback in all its forms, but the HBK-4G seems to have a huge disadvantage in the obvious hunch weapon pod. As the 50 ton, relatively slow brawler, all the hunchbacks suffer from the weapon pod being the primary enemy target- but with the 4G,
and the size of the weapons required for one to put some serious hurt on anything (AC20, AC10, Gauss) means 3 ballistic actually means 1 ballistic and machine guns, or 2 ac5/ 3 ac2 suppression builds that I have always found require serious sacrifices with only 50 tons to play with.
With this in mind, what are the advantages to the 4G over the 4H, apart from its being a founder with the package? I love the idea of 2 machine guns chewing through the holes the AC20/Gauss makes, but 2 medium lasers on the 4H seems obviously better. Is there something I am missing?

2) I am pretty happy with the weapon balance atm, but there are a few odd choices I am intrigued about not playing the board game- firstly (and inevitably) why is the Gauss rifle heavier but smaller than the AC/20? I have no problem with it balance wise (it seems the "medium laser" of ballistic weapons, and noone seems to complain about them being very good all rounders) but I don't really follow why it takes up less slots but more tonnage?

Secondly, when should I be using small or large pulse lasers? I am not sure how up-to-date with things the wiki ( http://www.mwowiki.o...rge_Pulse_Laser ) is, but the only mech I have really found that effectively mounts them on is the Awesome 8Q. Does anyone else field them regularly; what is the hidden advantage vs large lasers or PPCs?

3) Probably find out soon enough- but will the Cataphract just replace the hunchback? Can't see from the wiki any obvious strengths the hunchback has over it apart from the legendary HBK-4P.

4) Finally, for someone who has played the Mechwarrior games, but only glanced over the background, is there a source book or such to really understand what is going on? In my experience when I was younger (and this may attract hate) similar novels for Star Wars and 40k, X-wing etc were fun but pretty naff- would anyone recommend a good starter mechwarrior book/graphic novel etc that might turn me on to the franchise?

Cheers!

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

IMO, Battletech was cursed with crap authors, but there are still some good ones.

You'll find Decision at Thunder Rift and the Kerensky Blood Legacy trilogy to be very popular.

Edited by Z0MBIE Y0SHI, 16 November 2012 - 07:16 AM.

[Vermaxx]

The 4G is worthless if you've chosen not to run 2 or 3 cannons. The 4H is far better suited to being a 'big gun' mech because it still has five laser hardpoints too.

[Vermaxx]

A gauss rifle is firing a smaller slug, so the weapon is more compact. It is heavier because it has a bank of electonics and batteries powering it. Fluff crap, basically.

I never use pulse lasers. They weigh more, generate more heat, and have shorter range. I do not buy into the belief that their shorter pulses do wonders for damage.

I liked most of the Mechwarrior novels. Many of them were probably discounted by critics, but they were all pleasant enough for diversion reading.

[Tastian]

Pulse lasers got shafted a bit with the last patch which gave them higher heat. Plus they weigh more then standard lasers. Plus they have shorter range. But all is not lost. They have a shorter beam duration and faster recycle which means even more heat and damage. Why would you ever want MORE heat with LESS range? The answer is obvious. If you only have a couple energy hardpoints or just one but plenty of tonnage, go for the pulse laser with a couple extra heat sinks. You'll maximize your hardpoint to damage ratio. Also, if you are a up in your face brawler, you don't need the extra range.

As far as the hunchback versus cataphract discussion. This could go on for ever. Why would I want a Cicada when a hunchback can hold more weapons? Why would I want a hunchback when a cataphract can hold more weapons? Why would I want a cataphract when I can field an atlas? The answer again is obvious, the hunchback is a smaller target. Its faster. A good pilot will do very well in a hunchback because they can get to the battle faster; get away from the battle faster, and even chase down lights much better then a cataphract. One final advantage is that the matchmaking system tries to match weight groups. If everyone chose an Atlas, you'd be most likely facing another full team of Atlas. If you bring an hunchback, thats one less heavy or assault mech the other team gets. Most of the time.

[PhigNewtenz]

1) Don't know. I'll have to think about it.

2) It's more dense. No really, I have no idea. This kind of logic doesn't usually work. Why is a Medium Pulse Laser four time heavier than a Small Laser, but they take up the same number of slots?

As for Small and Large Pulse Lasers, I find very little use for them. Large Pulses can be devastating against fast-movers, if you have the weight and cooling to support them. Small Pulses are inferior to Medium Lasers in almost every situation, so I've never even considered using them.

3) Probably not. The primary differences are speed, survivability, and cost. The Cataphract will be Slow, Tanky, and Way more expensive to purchase/repair.

4) No! Stop! Don't get sucked into the Lore and TT community. You'll only end up conditioning all your forum arguments on 'TT This' and 'Canon That'. You'll hate PGI for not putting rollable fuzzy dice in your Mech's cockpit to make all your decisions for you. Save yourself the headache and just enjoy the game for what it is. When community warfare come around, you can learn the story as it's rolled out, and take part in shaping where it goes.



Edit 15:54GMT 11/16/2012: Apparently some humorless tightwads have been taking my answer to question four seriously. Just stop hurting your brains. With phrases like "'TT This' and 'Canon That'" and "rollable fuzzy dice" people think I'm not making a joke? You can come down from your pulpit. Here at ground level we like to have fun. I was merely making fun of the fact the SOME people constantly quote Canon and TT as if they're immutable design laws for this game AND that some people get horribly defensive when you suggest they might be wrong to do so. Read on for examples of over reactions:

Edited by PhigNewtenz, 16 November 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Vermaxx]

PhigNewtenz, on 16 November 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

4) No! Stop! Don't get sucked into the Lore and TT community. You'll only end up conditioning all your forum arguments on 'TT This' and 'Canon That'. You'll hate PGI for not putting rollable fuzzy dice in your Mech's cockpit to make all your decisions for you. Save yourself the headache and just enjoy the game for what it is. When community warfare come around, you can learn the story as it's rolled out, and take part in shaping where it goes.

You were doing really good up until Point 4. He didn't ask for rules books, he asked for things to get him into the franchise. The NOVELS play out way more like MWO than people will admit. The novels are also a decent read if you like giant stompy robots shooting each other, mixed with political intrigue and general tom foolery.

Stop being a bigot. We quote the tt rules because PGI THEMSELVES said they wanted to adhere to them as closely as possible, and then cite things like DHS as overpowered.

[FerretGR]

Doom Bull, on 16 November 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

So I am a long time (ish) lurker, first time poster, wondered the mobs thoughts on a couple of things...

Welcome, sort of!

Doom Bull, on 16 November 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

4) Finally, for someone who has played the Mechwarrior games, but only glanced over the background, is there a source book or such to really understand what is going on? In my experience when I was younger (and this may attract hate) similar novels for Star Wars and 40k, X-wing etc were fun but pretty naff- would anyone recommend a good starter mechwarrior book/graphic novel etc that might turn me on to the franchise?

I recommend making an attempt to read them chronologically, and that works, because they get off to a good start. Start with the Grey Death Legion books: Decision At Thunder Rift, Mercenary's Star, and The Price of Glory. They're pretty close to the start chronologically and I really enjoyed them. If you enjoy those, read The Sword and The Dagger, and then the Warrior trio (Warrior: En Garde, Warrior: Riposte, and Warrior: Coupe). The Yen-Lo-Wang comes from the Warrior series originally, FYI. Lots of books to read after that if you're still enjoying!

Cheers!

ETA:

PhigNewtenz, on 16 November 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

4) No! Stop! Don't get sucked into the Lore and TT community. You'll only end up conditioning all your forum arguments on 'TT This' and 'Canon That'. You'll hate PGI for not putting rollable fuzzy dice in your Mech's cockpit to make all your decisions for you. Save yourself the headache and just enjoy the game for what it is. When community warfare come around, you can learn the story as it's rolled out, and take part in shaping where it goes.

Ugh. How ignorant. Lore, the TT game, all of this simply adds richness to the BT/MW experience. I'm truly sorry for anyone who feels this way. And Vermaxx is right... this game adheres to TT in many ways, and that's intentional, so it's worth talking about.

Edited by FerretGR, 16 November 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[Viper69]

I turned my 4G into a long range mech. I dont brawl I snipe. The hunchback has a unique feature all its own in that its hunch can fire over a hill and you only present your head and hunch to the enemy. Its the mech version of being hulled down.

[PhigNewtenz]

Vermaxx, on 16 November 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

You were doing really good up until Point 4. He didn't ask for rules books, he asked for things to get him into the franchise. The NOVELS play out way more like MWO than people will admit. The novels are also a decent read if you like giant stompy robots shooting each other, mixed with political intrigue and general tom foolery.

Stop being a bigot. We quote the tt rules because PGI THEMSELVES said they wanted to adhere to them as closely as possible, and then cite things like DHS as overpowered.

Jesus Christ dude, take a chill pill. With phrases like "'TT this' and 'Canon that'" and "rollable fuzzy dice" you actually thought I was being serious?

No need to call anyone a bigot. I'm glad PGI had years of TT and Canon to use as a starting point, and was merely poking fun at the crazy conflicts that happen on these forums over the need to diverge from those constrictive rules to create a working game.

Settle down.

Also, I made this for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Define+Bigotry

[Penance]

Doom Bull, on 16 November 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

So I am a long time (ish) lurker, first time poster, wondered the mobs thoughts on a couple of things...

1) Firstly, I love the hunchback in all its forms, but the HBK-4G seems to have a huge disadvantage in the obvious hunch weapon pod. As the 50 ton, relatively slow brawler, all the hunchbacks suffer from the weapon pod being the primary enemy target- but with the 4G,
and the size of the weapons required for one to put some serious hurt on anything (AC20, AC10, Gauss) means 3 ballistic actually means 1 ballistic and machine guns, or 2 ac5/ 3 ac2 suppression builds that I have always found require serious sacrifices with only 50 tons to play with.
With this in mind, what are the advantages to the 4G over the 4H, apart from its being a founder with the package? I love the idea of 2 machine guns chewing through the holes the AC20/Gauss makes, but 2 medium lasers on the 4H seems obviously better. Is there something I am missing?

2) I am pretty happy with the weapon balance atm, but there are a few odd choices I am intrigued about not playing the board game- firstly (and inevitably) why is the Gauss rifle heavier but smaller than the AC/20? I have no problem with it balance wise (it seems the "medium laser" of ballistic weapons, and noone seems to complain about them being very good all rounders) but I don't really follow why it takes up less slots but more tonnage?

Secondly, when should I be using small or large pulse lasers? I am not sure how up-to-date with things the wiki ( http://www.mwowiki.o...rge_Pulse_Laser ) is, but the only mech I have really found that effectively mounts them on is the Awesome 8Q. Does anyone else field them regularly; what is the hidden advantage vs large lasers or PPCs?

3) Probably find out soon enough- but will the Cataphract just replace the hunchback? Can't see from the wiki any obvious strengths the hunchback has over it apart from the legendary HBK-4P.

4) Finally, for someone who has played the Mechwarrior games, but only glanced over the background, is there a source book or such to really understand what is going on? In my experience when I was younger (and this may attract hate) similar novels for Star Wars and 40k, X-wing etc were fun but pretty naff- would anyone recommend a good starter mechwarrior book/graphic novel etc that might turn me on to the franchise?

Cheers!

1 - there are no differences between the founders mechs and the normal versions of them without founders apart from the cbill earning, and I think they have an XP bonus as well. as for the chassis difference, The 4h (founder) is the more traditional hunchback. meant for one large gun ac20, gauss, etc in that shoulder spot. the other is meant for multiple smaller cannons like ac2's maybe. The sacrifice isn't too great if you use an XL engine. half the weight affords a lot of freedom in adding things.

2 A- Why is it heavier? You'll have to ask a physicist / weapons specialist. I can guess that the use of magnets and electric coils, which is made of heavy metals like iron and copper would be part of that.

B- range you're usually going to be at is usually a factor, weight and heat. I tend to stick with mediums since they're an even 1 or smalls at .5

3 no. what people will use is out of our control. but hunches will still be around.

4 - I can't reccommend and books specifically, but there are a lot. Depending on what you want to read about there are the blood of kerensky novels (which i'm trying to find) that outlines the clans, and others, but they're old, and were all released in the 80's for the most part. There are newer novels called "Mechwarrior Dark Ages" but they take place way way way after this game...like 100+ years after so the mechs you know won't be there, or extremely rare. best bet for novels is local small book-sellers for used books, or retail outlets like Barnes and Noble, but they would only have new books, or the internet of course.

as owner of some, you can also look at the sourcebooks for the TT and roleplaying game as they tie into each other, but they don't have any real history of the universe for the most part. They're mostly rulebooks with a spattering of lore. stick to the novels.

sarna the wiki page i think has a section there to view the novels. Some were good, some had good authors, others, not so much.

Edited by Penance, 16 November 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[PhigNewtenz]

FerretGR, on 16 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Ugh. How ignorant. Lore, the TT game, all of this simply adds richness to the BT/MW experience. I'm truly sorry for anyone who feels this way. And Vermaxx is right... this game adheres to TT in many ways, and that's intentional, so it's worth talking about.

I never said they didn't add to the experience. What exactly am I ignorant of?

You feel sorry for me for my opinion on the interaction between different parts of a Sci-Fi sub-culture and their impact on a video game? I feel sorry for your apparent lack of reading comprehension.

First, Google 'satire'. Second, grab a dictionary and try to figure out what I meant by the word 'condition'. It's perfectly okay (and desirable) for TT and other parts of the culture to be discussed, but people who condition their entire argument on facts and figures from TT are often doing themselves a disservice because they're closing off a lot of avenues of thought and discussion that could make for a better video game.

Let's try something new. Assume the best about other posters, and wait for them to prove you wrong. Hi, I'm PhigNewtenz. I never meant to offend you. No need to belittle me, call me ignorant, or presume to 'feel sorry for' me.

Have a nice day.

[Penance]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Novels

[Undercover Brother]

Simple answers:

#1: Look at the model numbers of your Hunchbacks... G came before H. The H is just an upgraded G model.

#2: In theory, the pulse-varients of lasers can focus short, but more powerful bursts onto a target, but sacrifice range and heat efficiency.

#3: No. The Cataphract will NOT replace the Hunchback. Every mech, and every mech variant is SUPPOSED to have a certain job-set. Hunchys are supposed to be like linebackers, defending your group from mechs that get too close. The Phract is an all-out attack/assault unit. Both are VERY ammo dependent though, so neither should ever stray far from support, because of insufficient backup weapons. Cats should ALWAYS run near the rear for the same reason. Even the K2, with it's direct-fire weapons. Awesomes have paper-thin armor (for an Assault-class) and major heat issues. They should always have backup to protect their rears, an should always engage at range. Ravens are the epitome of recon units... They are reasonably fast, and can carry impressive weapons. Commandos and Jenners are harassers. In pairs, and larger groups, Assault-mechs stand no chance. Cicadas are just heavier recon units. Centurions are nice infighters, who increase damage while closing with the target. Small torsos and legs make it hard to take down. Atlases are tanks with one flaw... Speed, or lack thereof. They can't twist/turn/run worth a damn. With proper support on their flanks, and rear, they are virtually unstoppable. Dragons are bigger and faster Centurions.

#4: As far as Battletech/Mechwarrior books: Many are available on Amazon, but the REALLY GOOD ONES are only going to be found in rare/used/old bookstores. About 90% of the books have been out of print since the 90s.

[Doom Bull]

Tastian- I get your point, but the roles they fill seem very similar (at least looking at the wiki), with identical speeds! I guess we will find out when it comes out, just a first glance these 2 look closer than any of the others in play.
Viper- I hadn't looked at it this way! Being a long time hunch player I had been more frustrated by the low mounted Atlas AC and the convergence on Yen-Lo, rather than seeing the high hunch cannon as a bonus.
Penance- the founders hunch is the 4G rather than 4H, which is whats sad- its the hunch I use least often
Cheers for the fast feedback!

[FerretGR]

PhigNewtenz, on 16 November 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

You feel sorry for me for my opinion on the interaction between different parts of a Sci-Fi sub-culture and their impact on a video game? I feel sorry for your apparent lack of reading comprehension.

Hard for me to comprehend what you don't say. All you said was "Avoid the TT/Lore," and mocked those who use TT/lore as arguments around here. Perhaps you were being sarcastic or facetious or trying to be funny; these things don't translate well online.

Let me demonstrate:

Yeah, someone who really hates the TT aspect would NEVER use words like "fuzzy dice" to make light of their opposition. Mocking people who feel differently NEVER happens around here... how crazy for us to assume that's what you were doing.

[Scratx]

And that is why it is never a bad idea to use the "/sarcasm" tag!