47 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Alexa Steel, on 17 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

And that is supposed to tell me what?

That me having worked on games, at all, has no bearing on this, because MWO's designers and developers don't appear to have done any prior work on games that matter, either.

[Alexa Steel]

Vassago Rain, on 17 November 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

That me having worked on games, at all, has no bearing on this, because MWO's designers and developers don't appear to have done any prior work on games that matter, either.

What an excellent retort. Really backs up your claim. If you want to fact check my claim, well look up Cevat Yerlis An old horse learning a new trick. That should pretty much tell you all you need to know about F2P games.

Edited by Alexa Steel, 17 November 2012 - 03:41 AM.

[nitra]

Alexa ,

While i appreciate the necessary funding model of AAA games is difficult to acquire and a lot promises and meetings have to be made .

I feel the the industry has been mislead for a long time . By these publishers and/or whoever makes the decisions on whether something makes it into production.

taking a look at the kickstarter phenomena it shows that there is a lot of untapped money out their for "niche" games

Breif examples .

Waste Land 2 : 2.9 million funded by a niche fan base that publishers have ignored for near 2 decades.

Project Eternity: 3.9 million funded again by the nich who was ignored

Star Citizen : 5.5 Million funded again buy another ignored niche.

Natural selection 2 : funded by its fan base before kickstarter were even in vouge and has made a million + dollars
not bad for a game whose audience derives from a little known halflife 1 mod released over 10 years ago .


basically my point being is that these publishers and investors are clearly wrong when it comes to making game decisions.
their practices of dictating how the games progress and how they become utilized, usually kill any ip resurrection with their heavy handed requirements in a attempt to make the game more broadly accepted by the casual player .

the fact is the casual player does not care about games . they just want to play around in something for a few hours dont care about the eccentricities, the story ,or even the game play . they just want ooo pretty bam bam bam gimme an achievement !!
Next please .

And the industry has catered enough to these types of players while they may be easily placated they have contributed to the stagnation of the commercial game market .

Hopefully this kickstarter phenomena will be the fresh air we need because the industry as a whole has about smothered its self.


By the way thanks for the reading material hopefully i can find some time to read those . any insight into this industry is always interesting , at least to me.

Edited by nitra, 17 November 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Alexa Steel, on 17 November 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

What an excellent retort. Really backs up your claim. If you want to fact check my claim, well look up Cevat Yerlis An old horse learning a new trick. That should pretty much tell you all you need to know about F2P games.

They've worked on...fishing games? Some racing games, or other. Made Duke forever's multiplayer, I've been told. Never played it.

Now they're going against common sense for their MMO, that's totally open beta, you guize, and not at all a released product. That's why we're accepting your money. But you can't tell us we're doing it wrong, because it's a beta! Except when we want to market it, then it's totally 'a legend returns.' Wait, why don't we have tons of new accounts, now that it's released? Oh, you don't want in, because it has no content? Entitled brats! This is a beta!

What was that? I never said it was released for mass appraisal. Never once. We're getting third person. Except we're not anymore, and we never were, and it was always just something we were planning for the future. No, wait - that's not it. We never planned for it in the future, either, and were simply doing more telemetry and metrics, to see how hard it'd be to implement. Which doesn't go against our initial promises and mission statements, that sold the game to so many people.

Oh, and you didn't buy anything. You gifted it. No refunds. Except when we'll refund russians and some americans, who pester us endlessly. Wait, that never happened, and we're not gonna speak about it. Now we're pushing open beta release, but it's not really open beta, and more of a soft release. Wait, we're delaying it because we're showing some common sense. No, we're not gonna focus on the new player aspects, for a game that's soon to be open to all. Because it's a beta, you see. Oh wait, we launched without a cash shop.

Which is good, because you're not ever supposed to be able to buy anything for disney dollars that you can't simply grind for. Swear.

F-minus.

[Alexa Steel]

nitra, on 17 November 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Alexa ,

While i appreciate the necessary funding model of AAA games is difficult to acquire and a lot promises and meetings have to be made .

I feel the the industry has been mislead for a long time . By these publishers and/or whoever makes the decisions on whether something makes it into production.

taking a look at the kickstarter phenomena it shows that there is a lot of untapped money out their for "niche" games

Breif examples .

Waste Land 2 : 2.9 million funded by a niche fan base that publishers have ignored for near 2 decades.

Project Eternity: 3.9 million funded again by the nich who was ignored

Star Citizen : 5.5 Million funded again buy another ignored niche.

Natural selection 2 : funded by its fan base before kickstarter were even in vouge and has made a million + dollars
not bad for a game whose audience derives from a little known halflife 1 mod released over 10 years ago .


basically my point being is that these publishers and investors are clearly wrong when it comes to making game decisions.
their practices of dictating how the games progress and how they become utilized, usually kill any ip resurrection with their heavy handed requirements in a attempt to make the game more broadly accepted by the casual player .

the fact is the casual player does not care about games . they just want to play around in something for a few hours dont care about the eccentricities, the story ,or even the game play . they just want ooo pretty bam bam bam gimme an achievement !!
Next please .

And the industry has catered enough to these types of players while they may be easily placated they have contributed to the stagnation of the commercial game market .

Hopefully this kickstarter phenomena will be the fresh air we need because the industry as a whole has about smothered its self.


By the way thanks for the reading material hopefully i can fond some time to read those . any insight into this industry is always interesting , at least to me.

True but kickstarter is not part of the "industry". I agree with you on almost all points too, I merely stated how the industry works. As a game designer I appreciate the advent of kickstarter, because it allows us to create games that do not need approval from the suits.

Wich is also the reason why games on kickstarter are successfull. Because there is some demand, however most of these games would have never seen approval by an investor. You see whats the problem here? When you HAVE to rely on investor backing you go the route of the industry, that applies to pretty much every established studio. Because creating a game is a huge risk if your company is bigger.

Small studios can afford the risk, because they dont have to pay 200+ people or even 50+ people.

[joker1974]

Well said OP. I've turned in my Mech wings for the time being. I pug, and pugging has become unappealing now. I see dumb kids jumping into trail Atlas and victory to their death (and TKing), with no intention of playing a somewhat team based game, even if it is pugging.

[DerSpecht]

Vassago Rain, on 17 November 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

They've worked on...fishing games? Some racing games, or other. Made Duke forever's multiplayer, I've been told. Never played it.

Now they're going against common sense for their MMO, that's totally open beta, you guize, and not at all a released product. That's why we're accepting your money. But you can't tell us we're doing it wrong, because it's a beta! Except when we want to market it, then it's totally 'a legend returns.' Wait, why don't we have tons of new accounts, now that it's released? Oh, you don't want in, because it has no content? Entitled brats! This is a beta!

What was that? I never said it was released for mass appraisal. Never once. We're getting third person. Except we're not anymore, and we never were, and it was always just something we were planning for the future. No, wait - that's not it. We never planned for it in the future, either, and were simply doing more telemetry and metrics, to see how hard it'd be to implement. Which doesn't go against our initial promises and mission statements, that sold the game to so many people.

Oh, and you didn't buy anything. You gifted it. No refunds. Except when we'll refund russians and some americans, who pester us endlessly. Wait, that never happened, and we're not gonna speak about it. Now we're pushing open beta release, but it's not really open beta, and more of a soft release. Wait, we're delaying it because we're showing some common sense. No, we're not gonna focus on the new player aspects, for a game that's soon to be open to all. Because it's a beta, you see. Oh wait, we launched without a cash shop.

Which is good, because you're not ever supposed to be able to buy anything for disney dollars that you can't simply grind for. Swear.

F-minus.

Funny guy. Look at wargaming. All they did was "massive assault" and then all of a sudden they launched World of Tanks one of the most successful F2P games ever. The game was progressing like MWO does now.

So we have proof that it can work and my guess it that this model will work again. Save you breath until official release. We will see how far this game can really get by then.

[Vassago Rain]

DerSpecht, on 17 November 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Funny guy. Look at wargaming. All they did was "massive assault" and then all of a sudden they launched World of Tanks one of the most successful F2P games ever. The game was progressing like MWO does now.

So we have proof that it can work and my guess it that this model will work again. Save you breath until official release. We will see how far this game can really get by then.

They never promised the moon, and as far as I know, they never trolled their own community on their own forums, either.
We weren't supposed to have world of mechs, were we?

[DerSpecht]

Vassago Rain, on 17 November 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

They never promised the moon, and as far as I know, they never trolled their own community on their own forums, either.
We weren't supposed to have world of mechs, were we?

They Didnt? You must have played a different game since closed beta. I Still see no historical battles and interesting game modes that were promised like 2 years ago....

[Vassago Rain]

DerSpecht, on 17 November 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

They Didnt? You must have played a different game since closed beta. I Still see no historical battles and interesting game modes that were promised like 2 years ago....

I actually wasn't even around back when world ot tanks was new. But if they were doing the exact same things PGI are doing now, that tells me we have two incompetent companies on the run.

[Darth JarJar]

+1 OP

[Alexa Steel]

@nitra: You might want to check out Tracy Fulertons book "Gamedesign Workshop" its basically the bible of game design.

[Vassago Rain]

Alexa Steel, on 17 November 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

@nitra: You might want to check out Tracy Fulertons book "Gamedesign Workshop" its basically the bible of game design.

The bible isn't a good source of information on any subject.

[Alexa Steel]

Vassago Rain, on 17 November 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

The bible isn't a good source of information on any subject.

Correct the Bible is not.

[Martini Henrie]

Thanks OP for an insightful post. I agree with most of what has been added in the thread too.

It is also funny to watch Rain wonder his way around a thread too. I though you had left for greener pastures?

Right, back to blowing mechs up...

[Kurayami]

problem with pgi is a lack of experience. they are clearly motivated and willing but sadly cant deliver or at least cant deliver at time needed. they are also prone to making some rushed and strange decisions. atm it looks like their plans crumbled before the mighty mix of QQ casual crowd, their own greed and some unexpected problems.

see for yourselves - start with engine choice. yes this is surely AAA+ engine but it have some serious problems and everyone aware of them, yet PGI spraying promises without even confirming that those are possible to implement (say hello to "no rear view" and crappy pip zoom).

next is security system - yes it is nearly impenetrable to your ordinary hackerwannabe but backslash is all those problems with delays, warping and sky high requirements to net code. i cant even name another mmo title with same sec - yes they have bots, dupe, hacks etc but that is what GM's for and i dont think that said security worth strain on net code etc maibe in a long run. a very long run.

next is loved by all of us map design. to put it simply - i don think they even have map designer. why i think so? because if they had dedicated person for this we would be drowned in maps literally. even with crude mod tools fairly good map will take like a few weeks or so add another week to extensive testing and vuala. but we are not. and every new patch is ruining existing maps adding transparent areas and memory leaks.

netcode which is ugly but slowly evolving to better (bringing slowpoke to shame). with different sec system this will be not a problem. at least not such a big one.

inexperience is also apparent by constant failures of core systems like patcher screwing game files, patches being corrupted, patches doing exactly opposite of patchnotes etc just look at the bug with catapult missile bay doors - "fixed bug with catapult missile bay doors" appeared in at least 5 patch notes yet bug is still here and it is very easy to produce and they know it which bring us to question - do they even test it?

etc etc etc i could go on endlesly but this wont help us. so what i wish fir pgi is "get your priorities straight. decide on what to do and go that road"

as for niches - basically what they should done if they wanted to please all niches is dividing game into separate parts ie "casual" arcade bum-bam, semisimulator for average mech\bt fan and hardcore for diehards. and done it from the start so there wouldn't be "no to 3d person" etc posts. what they are doing currently is ruining fairly good semisimulator mode.

Edited by Kurayami, 17 November 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[Johnny Morgan]

wwiionline.com is another example of a niche game done right.

EVE isn't the only one, wwiionline launch back in 2000, it can totally be done and if done right will stand the test of time.

[Khan Warlock Kell]

I freely admit im one of the vocal minority, like many here on the forums. However i don't only moan and complain. I do try and point out the positives too. There are lots of problems with the game right now, but i have faith that given time they will be fixed. My concern at the moment is more do do with the direction the game is possibly heading.

I think for the most part the the stated vision of the game, and where it would be when it went open was spot on. Yes i realise that as the game starts to take form the Dev's vision changes grows and expands into ways they hadn't considered before. I just think when theese new, and not so new ideas come to them. They need to sit and ponder them for longer before they give voice to them. A genuinely good idea will stay a good idea while you form an idea how to implement it. An idea that seems to be a good one but after an extended period of reflection can often be seen for the mistake that it is, before you spent time effort energy and resources trying to implement it. It also stops alot of forum complaining.

Only the Devs know how the funding stream for this project is going, if they are meeting or exceeding thier projected cash flow. Or if the cash is just not coming in as quickly needed or exspected. My personal belief is if they make a good game, stay true to core MW tennents the revenue will come. If you dumb down the game, turn it into an arcade 3rd person shooter all your going to do is alienate your core community, the people who being older gamers tend to have the spare cash to drop on a free to play game. If you take the depth and skill out of this game and yes i do say dumb it down to appeeal to the COD generation of console players you are destroying your own biggest cash source. With no depth thier is nothing to keep theese younger players here, they play maybe stay for a short while and then move to the next newest big thing.

Build the game that you talked about in the begining. The Mech simulator, use the lore built into the game. give the game depth, as well as making it pretty and giving the player choices. Make the meta game the thing that holds players here. The more engaging you make the game the more you draw people in. Keep them drawn in and they will spend money. But i think PGI and IG need to recognise that trying to combine the hard core and casual community into one game area will just lead to tears like it has now. Look for ways for pug gamers to feel part of the meta game but dont force them into fighting in team battles, Allow them the chance to see what its like if they wish too. Also recognise that the people who are going to make or break this game are those that play as part of teams. They will put money into this game and keep putting it in if you give them a reason too.

Founders willingly gave you over 5 million Dollars, Most having only seen a screen shot. Do you really think if you give them the game they want they will stop giving you money ? The most likely way to make them stop giving you money is by deviating away from your posted vision of where you see this game going. When you took this game into open beta one of the reasons you stated for doing this was because the testers were getting tired and jaded. I think PGI needs to realise that listening to those that do nothing but moan and complain demanding changes to the game and or its core components makes members of the silent minority make posts like the OP. They do become tired and jaded.

This is a great game, i love playing it. I love playing with my new unit buddies some of them i have reconnected with after nearly 10 years, others are new friends. PGI My new gaming Unit size wise, isn't that big. Barely reaching ninety players. But we all love this game and i dont think one of us regrets either buying a founders pack, or buying MC's.

We want to hang around and play this game, We want to be in this for the long haul. all we need is for you to stick to your principles and make the game you promised us and we will keep spending money to support you. I'm pretty sure almost all gaming units feel the way we do.

Edited by Zakius, 17 November 2012 - 06:04 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

DerSpecht, on 17 November 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

A product that is not made for the masses wont earn any money.

cheese is not a game for the mass , and living ...xcom ,not a game for the masses ,and reborn ..the "mass", asmall group of Schizoidic nacistic fundamentalists, are few controlled Oppotunisten who shout the loudest, and others drown and as decisive act, and transform any democracy due to their aggressiveness in a dictatorship with Brain Zombies.

best no Gaming example, for it that Vassago is right, is Peter jackson and "Lord of the Rings"... not the mass has accelerated the evolution, but a few are different them and walk on her own way. The mass would have starved in Africa and would have become extinct with it the humanity.

The mass will not Pirates Movies..seeing Pirates of Caribean
the mass will not Western Movies or Games ..seeing True Grit , and red Dead Redemption

What is the Mass ? a great statistic Liar

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 17 November 2012 - 06:26 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

DerSpecht, on 17 November 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Funny guy. Look at wargaming. All they did was "massive assault" and then all of a sudden they launched World of Tanks one of the most successful F2P games ever. The game was progressing like MWO does now.

So we have proof that it can work and my guess it that this model will work again. Save you breath until official release. We will see how far this game can really get by then.

how much competition has the WoT? no competition for something different or better, makes, and thus no Danger. appears better competition, WoT is extinct in its ecological niche, they have to be just the bonus have been the first

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 17 November 2012 - 06:30 AM.