6 replies to this topic

[ExAstris]

As most of you probably know, we finally got some details on their latest assessment of balance and what weapons are looking at getting modified.

Original Post: http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

One item on the list that appears to not have its details hammered out yet is that of PPCs.

What should be done with them? What should not be done with them? Discuss:




My two cents:
The regular PPC and the ERPPC are entire worlds apart in usability.


The regular PPC has a quite manageable damage:heat ratio. It also benefits from doing its damage to a single location, unlike the lasers it competes against. It has the drawbacks of having a travel time and a minimum range.

Frankly, I've found this weapon to be pretty darned usable, I still opt for Large Lasers (and sometimes Large Pulse Lasers) instead, but its mostly because of the minimum range on the PPC, not because of its usability otherwise. But removing the minimum range is problematic because then I think it would replace large lasers on the majority of mechs.

Given that PPC will also be given an ECM-like secondary effect, I don't think the regular PPC needs to be buffed too much to see alot of use. Removing its travel time removes its uniqueness in the energy weapon category, and completely removing the minimum range will make it too good.

So here's my suggestion for the regular PPC: Increase the damage that it does inside its minimum range. Currently the weapon deals near 0 damage (maybe 1?), increase that so the weapon isn't entirely useless inside 90m. The PPC is a heavy, hot, direct-fire weapon. Its big enough and requires enough heat sinks that it falls on the side of primary armament for any mech taking it. Having your primary armament be entirely useless inside a certain range is a really nasty penalty for a non-support, direct-fire weapon. I don't know exactly what number would be best, but I'd think somewhere around 5 would be nice. Half the damage inside its minimum range, but still all the heat and travel-time issues.

That would take PPCs from my 'occasional fun' list to 'serious business' list without breaking their flavor or entirely mitigating their minimum range uniqueness.



The ERPPC is another beast entirely. No minimum range, significantly better maximum (and falloff) ranges, but way more heat.

I never use this.

It isn't as lolbad as Machine Guns are, but it has a crippling feature.

The damage:heat ratio is attrocious, and the range benefit just isn't worth it. The only actual benefit to this weapon is that it has no minimum range so you can alpha-nuke charge-monkeys at point blank. Sniper fights are extremely rare in MWO, and you always need to keep up huge pressure on enemies that close, so getting an extra 50% range is just absolutely not worth taking 44% more heat because 90% or more of your shots will be well under the normal PPCs max range.

The ER Large Laser has the same problem imo. The heat gain over the non-ER version is stupendously too high to compensate for a range advantage that you'll rarely get to use.

So my recommendation here is to reduce the heat output by at least one, if not two points. (The ERLL needs to go down by at least two points as well imo). Its pretty easy in this game to force engagements to take place below 500m, so what we're really trading worse heat generation for on this weapon is to have no 90m minimum range, and that just isn't worth a whole 4 more heat per shot.

[Dreadp1r4te]

I kind of disagree on some points. Having used an AS7-K (with great results) with twin PPCs, I've noticed the damage is VERY inconsistent. I always link fire them, and my aim is pretty darn good, but I absolutely positively do not get the same damage-to-component effect that I do with my AS7-D-DC with an AC20 on it. The AC20, in range, will instantly orange a fully armored Atlas side torso (from the front) for example, while a pair of PPCs (same damage, 10x2) in range will commonly not, but they will also graze damage across other components in the vicinity of the impact. Whether or not this adds up to the full 10 damage per shot is beyond my testing capability, but having used both 'Mechs extensively, I can honestly say it doesn't feel like it.

I don't know how the PPC is coded as far as splash damage, but in TT they hit a location and did damage to that location. I suggest one of two things needs to happen to really "fix" them; and that's either normalize the splash damage so that splash damage is done in addition to the direct damage to component hit, or remove the splash entirely and just give me direct damage to what I hit. We have enough energy weapons that are difficult to concentrate damage on one component with; the PPC is supposed to be exactly not that.

I do agree with increasing the damage while under range. Lots of 'Mechs are smart enough to simply rush under 90 meters to avoid my main guns (and yes, I really do have to dedicate 24 tons of my 'Mech to making PPCs viable) and simply peck at me at close range. I really don't think this is a fair tactic, as the Gauss, the PPC's nearest competitor, does not suffer from that flaw, nor does the AC/10, another comparable weapon.

I also agree that the heat increase from PPCs to ER PPCs is way way WAY too high to make them even considerable. Maybe 1 of them, but certainly not 2 as principal armament. Something should probably be done here, for sure. Same with ER Large Lasers... the AS7-K trial 'Mech is the biggest joke of an Atlas trial I've yet seen. The XL engine makes it way too vulnerable, and its otherwise impressive loadout is gimped by the current heat mechanic and insane heat generated by the ER Large Lasers.

Seeing as I've invested MC into a build I planned (with great care) to make PPCs viable (using no less than the heaviest chassis in the game) I would certainly love to see some love shown their direction. Help us out PGI!

[Vincent Lynch]

I'm seeing more and more PPCs used in the last few days, many more than before. Seems people have learned to aim, and now think PPCs are not that bad.
I'm rarely seeing ERPPCs though, but since their heat output already has been reduced in comparison to TT, I think another heat "nerf" would quickly make them OP in comparison to normal PPCs.
IF the ER-PPC was to be buffed at all, devs should rather give it a little more of additional range than reduce it's heat further.

[Shi no Kami]

The ERPPC & ER LG. Laser problem stems from the TT. ER PPCs have a (limited) place in table top by removing the minimum range. ER LGs have Never had a place in tabletop*. In WMO there is almost no reason I can tell to mount a ER LG over a LG.


* Note: +20% hexes of range for +50% heat and +0% dmg has always made the ER LG the -second- worst weapon in the game. Streak One Shot SRMs are by far and away the WORST (Way to blow 2 tons for one shot!).

That said, I've never run an ER PPC on a mech in MWO... heat is bad enough with out running one.

[ExAstris]

@dread
I think the 'splash' damage that you're noticing is actually due to the fact that you're firing two weapons that have to converge on their target, in conjunction with a bug that causes the PPC's actual hit-location and hit-graphic to not sync properly all the time. I've noticed several shots where the graphic lands but does no damage, and several others (particularly against fast moving lights) where the damage registers but the graphic flies off into the sunset and strikes a hill a half-mile away.

Since you're firing two from wide arm mounts (much like the K2's base seperation), you end up striking two locations quite a bit because the PPC has travel time and gets really screwed up when the convergence gets momentarily confused (from reticle drift or rapid target distance changes at close range). I don't think there is any actual splash damage, just hit spread from multiple weapons with travel times (that you don't notice with ballistics because pretty much every mech has all its firing points in one location (even the K2 basically does as well, one of the reasons it will always be a better ballistics boat than the Jagermech, the K2 will never fight the convergence mechanic which current hurts projectile-like weapons in alot of situations)

@Vincent and Shi
Yeah, PPCs are definitely not bad, but they're also not good for really competative play because they're a direct fire weapon that becomes useless inside 90m. If they were instead harshly penalized (half damage, or even 1/3) instead of entirely disfunctional, they'd be alot more attractive as main armament for competative players instead of just people having fun using something besides the regular Large Laser.

And yeah, heat really does seem like the problem for the ER versions, giving them more range won't help because its already pretty hard to use the range they offer (very few places/maps you can snipe past 1km, and even then you don't do it for more than a couple of shots before someone backs down and closes to below 500m). I realize that you don't want to make the ER versions too friendly to use, because then everyone will mount them, but at the same time on non-trial mechs I currently see a usage ratio of around 1 ERLL, to 10 ERPPCs, to 30PPCs, to 150 LL. Given that they are all main armament, direct-fire energy weapons, the apparent usage ratio seems telling.

[Skyfaller]

Ive said this in other posts:


PPC's need to have the EMP effect added (this is coming)

PPC's need to have the size of their 'bullet' reduced to match an AC round. Currently it is the big ball of lightning that hits a mech that ends up dispersing the 10 damage hit through several components.

PPC rounds need to stop behaving like projectiles and behave like energy weapons. There should be no delay between click and fire (this is a MAJOR cause of ballistic convergence/lag issues) and it should travel at least twice as fast as what it does now.

PPC's also need to have their heat reduced. I'm sorry but in TT the PPC's main advantage was long range fire. In this game there is no such thing as long range because the maps are darn tiny. You cannot 'keep' your distance. Hence, in TT where the ranges were inmense the PPC's heat was balanced due to their ability to fire from afar.. in the game this doesnt happen so the heat needs to go down. A reduction of 1 heat in PPC and 2 heat in ER per shot would be adequate.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

Serious suggestion to fix PPCs as follows:

On the matter of effects from PPC hits:
I think the EMP effect should be more of an annoyance for balance sake. If we can take an Atlas out of the game for a few seconds using a PPC and hence have that jenner even more tear that Atlas apart it would be game breaking OP... and PPC mounted jenners and commandos would ruin the game. So nice if you have an effect, but I doubt it should do much.

PPC:

• Remove minimum range (as they did with gauss)
  
• Start balancing at same heat level as LL (it is heavier and uses more crits already... so it has a downside)
  
• Make the "bullet" speed A LOT faster (at least 10-15% faster than gauss)

ER PPC:

• Start heat balancing at the level of Large Pulse Laser
  
• Make the "bullet" speed A LOT faster (as above)