83 replies to this topic

[Arisaema]

Re: http://mwomercs.com/...31#entry1335931

Paul, I am thoroughly unimpressed that PGI has decided to drop double heat sinks down to 1.4. Game balance aside, double heat sinks work as designed on tabletop, why do they not work in this game?

Double heats sinks are meant to be a force multiplier and meant to up the combat effectiveness of mechs. The fact that your message above indicated the fact that some builds had their DPS increase significantly indicates that DHS are working as intended.

By setting DHS at 1.4, This is one of the first steps of moving you significantly away from how TT works. I understand why you doubled the armor, to make matches last longer, but I begin to question your decisions with DHS to swerve so significantly away from TT Canon.

TL;DR Version

DHS are supposed to be 2.0 not 1.4 and this decision sucks!

[Daekar]

They're concerned about greatly decreased time to kill as weapon loadouts outpace armoring, which would be exacerbated by fully functional DHS.  I have a proposal to enable DHS to implemented per TT rules, please visit my suggestion thread in this forum and give your comments.



As requested, the link to my thread: http://mwomercs.com/...k-and-clantech/

Edited by Daekar, 02 November 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Arisaema]

Daekar, on 02 November 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

They're concerned about greatly decreased time to kill as weapon loadouts outpace armoring, which would be exacerbated by fully functional DHS. I have a proposal to enable DHS to implemented per TT rules, please visit my suggestion thread in this forum and give your comments.

Daekar, please link your thread.

[Miles Naismith]

If they're worried about successive alphas, they should lower the maximum heat threshold instead. They can't lower DHS without the critical slot cost almost completely devaluing them. At 1.4, I don't think you can even hit 40 heat dissipation anymore. In fact, for the same crit slot cost for 40 in TT, you'd only get 28 Heat dissipation, a loss of 12.

[Voidsinger]

Okay, here's the problem.

They just effectively lowered the Threshold where Double Heat Sinks are worthwhile for Heavies and Assaults, in many ways making Endo-steel a better thermal choice (with extra single Heat sinks).

I do have issue also with their definition of "standard build". This is effectively something they need to tell us, because Standard builds don't work well in game at all.

I know in the game I killed Paul in, he was using a K2 with 4 Medium pulse lasers and a pair of machine guns. That is one massively light weapons load for a 65-tonner. Even 2 LPLs and 2 MPLs is more a medium loadout.

What they have done is maintained the Gauss Rifle at the top of the pile, especially with lasers now generating even more heat.

They have killed off the heavy energy weapons. Indeed, many builds will now be WORSE off with the "fix" than they were beforehand

[Pirofantasma]

Yep, With this they pretty much kill the energy weapons altogether. DHS were the only way to get a decent energy-based mech. With this, we're thrown back to balistics if we want to do any damage whithout shutting down. Whether we like balistics or not.

[Ranzear]

So lemmie get this straight:

My current DHS'ed Hunchie has 16 sinks. With the EHS 'bug' this means I have 10*1+6*2 = 22 heat per second.

When EHS'es are properly 'doubled' by the upgrade after the fix, the dissipation of DHS'es will be lowered: 16*1.4 = 22.4 HPS

So fixing the EHS bug does... absolutely nothing! Hell, having more than 16 sinks means the new DHS value will actually give you less cooling than before the fix!

[MasterNinja62]

I understand the reasoning behind reducing double heat sinks, its for game balance. However I believe 1.4 is too low I think 1.7 would be a good number, just my opinion

[Curon Hifor]

Throwing in my support for 2.0 heat disappated. Do you want PPCs and Lasers to be obsolete?

[Telthalion]

MasterNinja62, on 02 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I understand the reasoning behind reducing double heat sinks, its for game balance. However I believe 1.4 is too low I think 1.7 would be a good number, just my opinion

Agreed. 1.4 is too low to be effective, but I think a full 2.0 could be overpowered.

A nice middle ground would be ideal.

[WVAnonymous]

I bought DHS. I want a refund. Can I get one more Beta reset?

[Raven Star]

In my opinion.

You have just removed double heat sinks from the game effectivly.

You have removed large lasers, PPC's and ER large lasers already but now they have no chance except maybe in a raven.

I am very dissapointed.

[ExAstris]

Going with a full 2.0 dissipation is a terrible idea. Its taken a very long time to get the weapon balance to where it is now (and its still has a few problems), but drastically changing the heat efficiency of mechs would require a complete rebalance around those numbers. Not just a weapons rebalance, but a chassis rebalance as some mechs will end up needing more hardpoints to be competative.

Furthermore, the 2.0 level dissipation just further magnifies the distance between new and old players, making those starting steps ever so rough.

Even at 1.4 the vast majority of mechs will be getting a massive boost to sustained firepower, only some assault mechs will be facing a lack of boost, hardly a big price to pay for a game that already has more assaults on average than other classes.




PGI does not have a perfect track record when it comes to design balancing decisions. But this gentlemen, is not a case error.

[Josef Nader]

Low heat, small weapon boaters will dominate this game forever now. Guess it's time to give up on the AC20 ever being a worthwhile weapon over a gauss. I've been clinging so desperately to DHS making my build seriously competitive against low-heat builds. Now, they're just useless to an Assault.

God damnit this is so frustrating to me. Now, those lights that have been eating the hell out of my back armor get even -scarier-, and I stay exactly where I am. They get to lean on the trigger, I get to overheat a lot. Seriously, your heat scale is all screwy, PGI. Implement the one thing that fixes it properly.

/tableflip.

[Tickdoff Tank]

MasterNinja62, on 02 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I understand the reasoning behind reducing double heat sinks, its for game balance. However I believe 1.4 is too low I think 1.7 would be a good number, just my opinion

1.7 would be a good place to start. I still think 2.0 is where it should be, but I am willing to be convinced that 1.7 is acceptable. But 1.4 is simply too low.

I know they will be watching the "telemetry" of the game with 1.4 DHS, but I think what they will find is a severe lack of people using them. I would also love to know what mechs they tested 2.0 DHS on.

My opinion: set DHS to 2.0 (like they should be) and then adjust the weapons that are "too good". It is much easier to accept the changes to the individual weapons than to the whole heat system, at least to me. But as my wife is fond of pointing out, no one cares what I think.

[Barrett Osis]

Lets just try it at 1.4 and then complain if the game play sucks....

[Taemien]

This is definitely something that needs to be tested.

They've stated that at 2.0 instead of 1.4 that DPS of certain builds went up exponentially. And to be honest, I believe it. I've played BattleTech since 1997 and I've been playing MechWarrior pretty much non stop since 2009 with MechWarrior Living Legends.

In MWLL, mechs have DHS, but engine heatsinks do not count as DHS. They haven't ever counted as DHS. When selecting some variants, they have 2-3 DHS listed. If that was actually 12-13 DHS, or 24-26 HSs. Then heat would never be an issue.

Now from a TT perspective DHS is 2. TT is also very RANDOM. You cannot normally hit things in the CT all the time (Tcomps help, but aren't 100%). This is a computer simulation where ten second turns are simulated, not emulated. The only way DHS could be balanced at 2.0 would probably if all weapons 'locked' and hit random locations when you pulled the trigger, had cool downs of 10s, and were fired independently of one another. (There is a game like this that someone on the Mektek.net forums has worked on).

So before you all make a decision, just give it a shot.

Though I'm going to wager a number of you are of the ilk that ran with light mechs with 16 ER Small lasers in MW3 or 6-8 ER Large in MW4 on Madcats and used third person to glitch shots through hills. I'm glad such builds will never be viable here. Those of you that want them can go flush yourselves down a toilet. (I'd use another phrase, but the forum TOS and CoC do not permit it).

[Tyronica]

So lets see 1,4 heat for 3 critical slots, basicly means there useless tbh. if you want to make it 1,4 heat make them 2 critcal slots.
seems im staying with the 2 other upgrades they might take up 14 crit slots but what they bring to the table is worth it.

[Decep-Qi-Kons]

If you get a large enough engine, then most of your 3 crit heatsinks are accounted for. An atlas will have 12 heat sinks they don't need to place. That's 17 heat dissipation with no additional loadout constraints.

Large lasers and PPC's are hugely underpowered. I think that maybe these weapons need a bit of a DPS boost. I don't think the heat balance is wrong, though.

[ET3Locutus]

the updates seem to just kill this game more and more for me...... i love battletech and have all the mechwarriors and have played mwo for awhile now , so now its "Hey we found a glitch so ... MORE heat for your overheating lasers and oh ya those "double heat sinks" ya we will nerf them before we even get them working right".... my girl friend and cousin and I bought the legendary packs and now after all the "updates" i cant even get them to login any more... wow shouldnt even have endo or FF armor let alone DHS untill after the clans come or so i thought... and DHS do allow mechs to do ALOT more damage on the table top , that is there point...