21 replies to this topic

[Dmitri Valenov]

Greetings Fellow Mechwarriors,

I want to talk about the pilot trees for the various mech chassis. The main issue is a lack of differentiation between the pilot tree for an Atlas compared to that of a Jenner. In order for there to be true "Role warfare" I believe that the pilot trees for a given chassis should reflect what the mech is meant to do.

Jenners are useful scouts and harassers so the basic pilot tree should give bonuses to targeting range, target info gathering, and speed.

Assault mechs like the Atlas would have things like heat dissipation, rate of fire, and pretty much all the bonuses that are currently available as they are basically pretty much geared for straight up brawling.

Want to make support mechs like the Catapult and Trebuchet viable? How about giving them abilities like 15% faster lock-on, or reducing missile spread by X., or really anything to differentiate them from the other mechs in the line-up.

Role Warfare has been a major platform of this game since it was first introduced, but there is very little role specialization involved in the pilot trees themselves. Even if you just change up the Elite level skills to better reflect a mechs role it could do wonders for making each and every chassis important to the team play experience.

As it stands right now, yes, playing any weight class is perfectly viable, but they all feel the same because the bonuses they receive through experience are the same. Does anybody else feel this way? Or am I alone on this one?

Dmitri

[ToBe998]

This could also change the broken light mechs from being smaller assault mechs to good scouts. And it would make owning multiple mech classes more interesting.

[Darwins Dog]

I've been thinking about that lately too. There really should be some more mech specific abilities.

Give the centurion an improved chance to get the shield arm between the pilot and an enemy kind of thing. That's actually the only example I have right now,. It's early here.

[Khobai]

Yeah we need unique skills for each mech variant.


Basic Skills should be weight class specific skills (light, medium, heavy, assault, etc...)

Elite Skills should be mech specific skills (atlas, awesome, catapult, etc...)

Master Skills should be variant specific skills (atlas-d, atlas-d-dc, atlas-k, etc..

[Dmitri Valenov]

Khobai, on 20 November 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

Yeah we need unique skills for each mech variant.


Basic Skills should be weight class specific skills (light, medium, heavy, assault, etc...)

Elite Skills should be mech specific skills (atlas, awesome, catapult, etc...)

Master Skills should be variant specific skills (atlas-d, atlas-d-dc, atlas-k, etc..

This is probably the best way to go, though thinking of that many different efficiencies could be problematic. Maybe if the Basic efficiencies stayed as they are now, while Elites became weight class specific and Master was for a specific mech.

We don't need to make the dev's brains explode trying to come up with hundreds of unique efficiencies.

[sycocys]

How do you do it in a way that doesn't for a mech into a limited role though? Just because a mech has a certain weight and name doesn't mean it can't fill other roles just as well as another mech.

[Dmitri Valenov]

If every mech could fill every role equally well then everyone would just be playing assaults. Odds are if you play a light, fast, mech, then you are looking to fill the scout/harasser role. Yes, you can do damage and you can draw enemy fire, but are you going to match the raw damage output of an Atlas or K2 Cat? No.

Therefore, the mechs are already segregated in to roles by their hardpoints, speed, and weight class. This doesn't mean that you can't pinch hit in a different role if that is how you like to play, but you might not be using the best tool for the job.

[sycocys]

No you might not, but forcing a mech/player into a particular role is also a bad thing to do. When you gear the skills specifically to one thing then you start taking the other options off the table and I don't see that as a benefit to anyone.

It also takes the balance of the game farther away from being skill based balance - or at the very least something that will be far harder to maintain the skill based balance than having a general skill tree.

[Elyam]

Agree with the OP. In addition to an extensively-developed pilot skill system, having both general and specialized skill bonuses that relate to specific mech chassis is a great direction. I understand sycosys' concern posted above, which is why we should have both general and specific trees.

[Khobai]

Quote

How do you do it in a way that doesn't for a mech into a limited role though? Just because a mech has a certain weight and name doesn't mean it can't fill other roles just as well as another mech.

Each mech SHOULD have a limited role. For example, only light mechs should be good at scouting. Only Medium mechs should be good at skirmishing and harassing. Heavy mechs should be good at combat/strike/support. Assault mechs should be good at tanking, holding the line, and assaulting defensive positions.

What we need is a skill tree that promotes combined arms. What we dont need is a skill tree with a bunch of generic skills where any class of mech can fill any role... for example, a Cicada should not be as good of a scout as a Jenner... but the Cicada should be better at harassing than a Jenner.

Additionally each mech in a weight class should have its own specialized role. So for example, the Cicada might be more of harasser while the hunchback would be more of a skirmisher. And the Centurion would be somewhere in between. The point is that every mech should have its own unique playstyle....

Edited by Khobai, 20 November 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Its a good idea for lights and assults, because they are limited in their roles. But Medium's have to be flexable.

[Khobai]

Quote

But Medium's have to be flexable.

The harasser/skirmisher role is flexible.

[costi]

First of all, I'd love them to be trees, not stacks. As in, I need to make choices and if I pick A, b and C, I'll have to live without D, E and F.

[Stickjock]

Dev Blog 4: Role Warfare Continued

Quote

Scout Role Skills:

• • Radar Range Increase – Increases radar range by 2% up to 5 times
  
• • Ghost Signature – Increases length of time before a signal fades by 2% up to 3 times
  
• • Vision Mode 1 - Zoom Vision – Allows the pilot to zoom 7x
  
• • HUD Detail 1 – Enemy Damage Level – LOD detail in terms of damage
  
• • HUD Detail 2 – Enemy Component State – Overall component criticality
  
• • Null Signature System – Allows the pilot to appear shut down for 5 seconds
  
• • Multi-Targeting – Allows the pilot to target multiple enemies up to 4 at a time.
  
• • IDF Accuracy – Narrows the AOE of IDF fire.
  
• • Critical Shot Indicator – Shares with nearby friendly BattleMechs the critical components of an enemy BattleMech

Assault/Defense Skills:

• • Charging – A special attack that allows the pilot to drive their BattleMech into an enemy BattleMech without sustaining too much damage
  
• • Vision Mode 2 – Night Vision – Allows the player to see in dark areas/night
  
• • Vision Mode 3 – Thermal – Allows the pilot to see heat signatures through solid objects
  
• • Vision Mode 4 – Magnetometer – Allows the pilot to see metal through solid objects
  
• • DFA Damage Reduction – Reduces the amount of damage caused by performing a Death From Above attack
  
• • Power Up/Power Down Speed Increase – The power up and power down sequences are sped up by 20%
  
• • AMS Range Increase – Increases the effective range of AMS by 2% up to 5 times
  
• • Cognizance – Automatically lets the pilot know of any nearby friendly BattleMech taking fire
  
• • Critical Shot Receiver – Allows the pilot to receive the critical shot information from nearby scout Mechs

Commander Skills:

• • Order View – Allows the pilot to right click and request friendly BattleMechs to attack or defend areas/objectives on the BattleGrid
  
• • Command View – Provides a layer of information over the BattleGrid including objectives and any intelligence information passed back by scout Mechs on the front line
  
• • Call Air Strike – Calls in an air strike that does AOE damage in a straight line
  
• • Call Artillery – Calls in a land based artillery bombardment on to a target area
  
• • Call Naval Bombardment – Calls in Naval artillery bombardment that has a larger and more powerful result than regular artillery
  
• • Call UAV – Calls a UAV that passes overhead of the battlefield and relays ALL enemy positions to the command pilot
  
• • Call Predator Drone – Drops a heavy explosive device on a targeted area
  
• • Call Satellite Sweep – Full detail information is passed to the command pilot including enemy location/direction/speed
  
• • Danger Close – A short range radar detection system that lets the command pilot know of any nearby enemy BattleMechs

[Bobzilla]

Khobai, on 20 November 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

The harasser/skirmisher role is flexible.

Yes, which is why having skill trees more role spacific is better for lights and assults and not as effective to a medium who's advantage is not being role spacific.

[Dmitri Valenov]

Thank you Stickjock. I must have missed that Dev Blog....or completely forgotten about it since it was so long ago. That is pretty close to what I was thinking though.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes, which is why having skill trees more role spacific is better for lights and assults and not as effective to a medium who's advantage is not being role spacific.

Youre the only one saying medium mechs shouldnt fill a specific role. While Ive been saying the role of mediums should be skirmishing and harassment. That gives them a very clearly defined and flexible role in the game.

Quote

Thank you Stickjock. I must have missed that Dev Blog....or completely forgotten about it since it was so long ago. That is pretty close to what I was thinking though.

The pilot skill tree has absolutely nothing to do with what were discussing though. Under the pilot skill tree a commando, jenner, and cicada all have access to the same exact pilot skills. What we've been talking about is something totally different: giving each mech its own unique skills. The goal being to give people a reason to actually use mechs like the commando despite the jenner being undeniably better.

Quote

First of all, I'd love them to be trees, not stacks. As in, I need to make choices and if I pick A, b and C, I'll have to live without D, E and F.

This concept doesnt work in practice. Games like WoW have moved away from trees because players always chose the better set of skills while the weaker set of skills never got use.

Edited by Khobai, 20 November 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[ltwally]

ToBe998, on 20 November 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

This could also change the broken light mechs from being smaller assault mechs to good scouts. And it would make owning multiple mech classes more interesting.

Actually, the current Basic Mech Tree is very good for a light mech.

But the larger the mech, the more it is interested in brawling and/or sustained fire. Leaving the tree as-is for light mechs, but changing it for the heavies makes good sense.

[BumbleBee]

Personally, I'd like to be only able to select 4 items from a Basic tree, 2 from an Elite tree and leave the module slot as is for Master. Seperate trees for each class is a good idea as well.

That way, you can choose some buffs in the areas you want for your role, instead of just getting all. It might add a little extra variation on the battlefield instead of all Mechs having the exact same capabilities outside the lab.

The buffs would need some altering or tweaking from their current settings, but your Mech would actually be slightly customised to better fit your chosen role/personal play style.

[Tice Daurus]

Stickjock, on 20 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Dev Blog 4: Role Warfare Continued

First Congrats to Stickjock on becoming a new MOD here. Now I really have to watch my p's and q's.

Second, I also posted something like this a while back in the BETA threads a while back. But I would like to see more skills added, like basic piloting skills for all people to have which are based from the actual MECHWARRIOR RPG game. Like certain advantages that you have to choose before you start which define your mechwarrior. You could have:

• academy or university training, giving you a tactical advantage say when community warfare comes out into the game, like tactical bonuses.
  
• or be wealthy which gives you and inherit bonus when starting out.
  
• ambidextrious which allows you an increase to your gunnery and piloting skills.
  
• have a tech knowledge background in which helps you decrease the amount of cost for repairs.
  
• scrounger ability which allows you to pay less for parts or equipment via connections with the black or grey markets.

Or a host of different other skills pulled from the Mechwarrior role play books. I feel having this would further give people a chance to better detail their mechwarrior and allow it to become more emmersive in the game. If they did this, I would think this would be a great plus for the game.

Edited by Tice Daurus, 21 November 2012 - 08:00 AM.