351 replies to this topic

[Rejarial Galatan]

Lets leave it like this: Developers will choose if we have it or not. I see how it could help, you see how it probably wont, we do not agree, lets march on. ALL of us.

[Fooooo]

So let me get this straight rejarial.

You have "2-3 seconds of coolant" to lower your heat.

You emplore that newbies will "need" this mechanic or they will quit when they blow up from overheating or shuting down and dieing.

However, what happens once they use the coolant and have no more ?

Thats right, they now overheat and die just like if flushing never existed in the first place, which sort of nullifies your whole argument.

[Volthorne]

William Petersen, on 13 May 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

[/u]

The bold statements conflict in my head. @_@

I mostly ignored the factions in MW2. It was either "Blow up 'mechs" or "Blow up 'mechs". Politics is kinda not the highest on a 5/6yr-old's priority list (read: not even on it). I did enjoy looking at how cool the insignia artwork was, though (the only part of the factions I DID pay attention to ).

Edited by Volthorne, 13 May 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Foòóoo, on 13 May 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

So let me get this straight rejarial.

You have "2-3 seconds of coolant" to lower your heat.

You emplore that newbies will "need" this mechanic or they will quit when they blow up from overheating or shuting down and dieing.

However, what happens once they use the coolant and have no more ?

Thats right, they now overheat and die just like if flushing never existed in the first place, which sort of nullifies your whole argument.

actually, it does not nullify it in any way. They see the coolant, use it, see what it does to the heat, then slowly, painfully slowly start to adjust, then as they adjust what are they doing? learning heat management. its kinda a gentle way to teach the heat mechanics, instead of saying: sign on the dotted line. Ok, your a soldier. heres your uniform, your gun, get on THAT plane, get to the warzone and fight! which is the basic idea SOME are weirdly hoping for. I want SOME system, be it coolant flushing or a training area where we can fight w/out the cost of a full match, to learn, or some sort of tutorial where the game tells us what systems do and such. BUT, still, a 2-3 second burst across some external heat sinks of cold fluid can help ablate SOME heat to make your life or death next shot not mean death, and GIVE that chance to kill and not die.

[Zylo]

Rejarial Galatan, on 13 May 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

I am not sure if reading your post anyway even though I have you blocked, was a smart thing, as you failed totally Zylo. You assume I mean a NONSTOP cooling system akin to the heat sinks. No. look for my posts surat, and see that every time I mention cooling, I say 2-3 SECONDS worth of coolant and that is IT, then its empty. You also assume that I rely on these systems myself, which, I do not. In all my matches online and in campaign on MW4, I have used the coolant flush a dozen or so times in the last DECADE. You call me a liar, have fun, think your trollish thoughts. What you also fail to see is that having SOME iteration of this system is actually more likely to produce better energy weapon pilots than NOT having it. BS you say! I can prove it. At first, they WILL default right into using it, then, run out, then overheat and die one way or another. Next time around, they slow up a touch on the weapons, THEN default, over heat, die, And around they go until they find the butter zone of fire power, fire time, and suddenly coolant is an after thought, then, once they master it, its pretty much ignored. I honestly do not know what to make of you Zylo. I assume your a rational and intelligent person, you DO like this universe after all, BUT, you keep making these wild assumptions, assumptions, you have no proof to back them, other than my constant trying to reason with people whos cups are obviously full. As Moat says: "it is hard to fill a cup that is already full. We shall see if we can cure your insanity." props to those of you who KNOW this scene and what movie its from.

The nerdrage is strong in this one...

So lets start with coolant then shall we? Lets use an example that is a very simple system that uses coolant in PC cooling http://www.thermalta...spx?ID=2116&P=1

This is a closed loop system that has the same basic function as a mech cooling system would have which transfers heat from the sources like weapons to the heat sinks. Introducing a coolant flush ability (a drain valve in the coolant return line) to the system I linked with a pod that held extra chilled coolant (located in the supply line) that was far below the temp of the circulated coolant would cause thermal shock in the heat exchanger that in the thermaltake example would be the CPU block. In the case of the "coolant pod" the drain valve would be opened and the hot coolant would flow out while chilled coolant would be introduced to the system. It would not matter if this was only 2 or 3 seconds of flow the result would be the same due to the temp difference, the CPU block in the example would experience thermal shock if the difference in temp was too large. If the difference was very small there would be very little gained by flushing coolant.

On the off chance you are suggesting spraying chilled coolant directly on the heat sinks then the heat sinks would experience some form of thermal shock. Either way it's not a good result when any of these components experiences some form of thermal shock.

As for proving your "facts" only thing you have managed to prove is your inability to grasp concepts that have been explained to you by multiple forum posters. It's also rather funny to see all your poorly hidden personal attacks after whining so much about harassment and similar issues in another thread. Trying to troll a bit aren't you?

Edited by Zylo, 13 May 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[Volthorne]

Rejarial Galatan, on 13 May 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

actually, it does not nullify it in any way. They see the coolant, use it, see what it does to the heat, then slowly, painfully slowly start to adjust, then as they adjust what are they doing? learning heat management. its kinda a gentle way to teach the heat mechanics, instead of saying: sign on the dotted line. Ok, your a soldier. heres your uniform, your gun, get on THAT plane, get to the warzone and fight! which is the basic idea SOME are weirdly hoping for. I want SOME system, be it coolant flushing or a training area where we can fight w/out the cost of a full match, to learn, or some sort of tutorial where the game tells us what systems do and such. BUT, still, a 2-3 second burst across some external heat sinks of cold fluid can help ablate SOME heat to make your life or death next shot not mean death, and GIVE that chance to kill and not die.

So, where were you planning on storing that extra coolant, again? I want to make sure I don't miss. Also, even if it does get added, I doubt there will be a display showing if you've used your one-off ability, meaning the rookies would have to go digging through the key bindings, or know about it inherently.

To Rejarial, courtesy of Zylo, redirected by me:

Zylo, on 13 May 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

The nerdrage is strong in this one...

So lets start with coolant then shall we? Lets use an example that is a very simple system that uses coolant in PC cooling http://www.thermalta...spx?ID=2116&P=1

This is a closed loop system that has the same basic function as a mech cooling system would have which transfers heat from the sources like weapons to the heat sinks. Introducing a coolant flush ability (a drain valve in the coolant return line) to the system I linked with a pod that held extra chilled coolant (located in the supply line) that was far below the temp of the circulated coolant would cause thermal shock in the heat exchanger that in the thermaltake example would be the CPU block. In the case of the "coolant pod" the drain valve would be opened and the hot coolant would flow out while chilled coolant would be introduced to the system. It would not matter if this was only 2 or 3 seconds of flow the result would be the same due to the temp difference, the CPU block in the example would experience thermal shock if the difference in temp was too large. If the differce was very small there would be very little gained by flushing coolant.

On the off chance you are suggesting spraying chilled coolant directly on the heat sinks then the heat sinks would experience some form of thermal shock. Either way it's not a good result when any of these components experiences some form of thermal shock.

As for proving your "facts" only thing you have managed to prove is your inability to grasp concepts that have been explained to you by multiple forum posters. It's also rather funny to see all your poorly hidden personal attacks after whining so much about harassment and similar issues in another thread. Trying to troll a bit aren't you?

[Rejarial Galatan]

I cant tell you where I would store said coolant, as I do not yet know if the devs will add this mechanic, or if they do, what form it will ultimately take. Most likely, i would place the pod in an unused ballistic location or some other empty location. As to zylo: whos tryin to troll who? I say this for all involved in what is starting to become circular fighting: this is a dev issue, namely, do they place it in or not. i see it one way, YOU see it another, neither side will back down from their POV. we ALL part ways on this and wait for the closed beta for those of us lucky to get that, or open beta for the rest or full release. i am officially done with this circular fight. It is spilling into too many threads and derailing them.

[Volthorne]

Rejarial Galatan, on 13 May 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

i am officially done with this circular fight. It is spilling into too many threads and derailing them.

Good for you to back away, I'm done here too. Logic obviously isn't winning much ground. But...

I haven't seen any signs of this argument spilling into other threads. It is quite solidly contained here. Those other arguments are thread-contained as well.

Edited by Volthorne, 13 May 2012 - 10:41 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

its spilled some into other threads, I KNOW, ive made the same pleas else where. Logic is to see BOTH sides for what they are. passion pleas from both view points. Both have merit and fault.

[William Petersen]

Rejarial Galatan, on 13 May 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

its spilled some into other threads, I KNOW, ive made the same pleas else where. Logic is to see BOTH sides for what they are. passion pleas from both view points. Both have merit and fault.

I, for one, can see no merit in anything you've said in this thread. And the only reason the argument is 'circular' is because you refuse to acknowledge the laws of physics.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I see ways it CAN be made to work, and the laws of physics out here in the REAL world mean absolutely ZERO in a GAME. You want physics? By our OWN understanding of newtonian physics, a battlemech would CRUSH itself under its own weight, the ankles or knees or hips would sheer from the weight. Get past the fact that IRL physics dont mean dip in MWO and you too can see how a coolant system can work. When I look at a game, as when MOST people petersen do, we suspend our disbelief, and shelve what we know as physics. Who knows, maybe 1037 years from know they HAVE a way to get around thermal shock. Even when the PODS are used, they dont say HOW they avoid it do they? We assume and believe they have a way around it. As should you.

[Zylo]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 May 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

I see ways it CAN be made to work, and the laws of physics out here in the REAL world mean absolutely ZERO in a GAME. You want physics? By our OWN understanding of newtonian physics, a battlemech would CRUSH itself under its own weight, the ankles or knees or hips would sheer from the weight. Get past the fact that IRL physics dont mean dip in MWO and you too can see how a coolant system can work. When I look at a game, as when MOST people petersen do, we suspend our disbelief, and shelve what we know as physics. Who knows, maybe 1037 years from know they HAVE a way to get around thermal shock. Even when the PODS are used, they dont say HOW they avoid it do they? We assume and believe they have a way around it. As should you.

So you throw physics out when real world examples don't work in your favor like the coolant debate even when sarna sources indicate that real world physics are applying in the failures of cooling systems with coolant pod use?

Copied from sarna:

Coolant pods are highly susceptible to weapon fire, a fully pressurized pod will rupture and cause internal damage in the same manner of an ammunition explosion if struck. To avoid over-pressurizing and damaging the coolant systems of the equipped 'Mech, for safety reasons only one pod can be engaged at a time, though multiple pods can be carried. The violent release of coolant is damaging enough to the strained cooling systems of BattleMechs, the fragile modular coolant systems aboard OmniMechs consistently fail under the strain despite years of research by the Clans.

Then you try to apply physics claiming a mech would collapse under it's own weight and somehow because of that the coolant pod problems detailed on the sarna site should somehow no longer exist? Really? Lets see then, if mechs would collapse under their own weight how does mining equipment in use today stand up to the abuse of being operated over rough terrain carrying the weight of a few mechs for larger models? Here's an example for you, if you don't want to look around that page here's a link to the largest truck on the page. Shouldn't those trucks collapse under all that weight every time they hit a bump?

You are really reaching and only making yourself look desperate and foolish in this debate. You should probably stick to what you said about being done with this fight. You won't win.

Edited by Zylo, 14 May 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Belisarius1]

I feel like standing on the laws of physics isn't actually the smartest position when we're talking about battletech...

[Sassori]

Wait wait, physics don't matter now, but they matter in the other thread where people want super long range weapons and lights to survive heavy firepower from assaults unscathed...

Heh, Physics FTL.

Sometimes you just need to back away and let the idiots be idiots. Then again... I'm still hoping PGI slows down aiming and reduces armor again which makes speed a bigger factor.

[Volthorne]

Compliments of Zylo, Rejarial:

Zylo, on 14 May 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

So you throw physics out when real world examples don't work in your favor like the coolant debate even when sarna sources indicate that real world physics are applying in the failures of cooling systems with coolant pod use?

Copied from sarna:

Coolant pods are highly susceptible to weapon fire, a fully pressurized pod will rupture and cause internal damage in the same manner of an ammunition explosion if struck. To avoid over-pressurizing and damaging the coolant systems of the equipped 'Mech, for safety reasons only one pod can be engaged at a time, though multiple pods can be carried. The violent release of coolant is damaging enough to the strained cooling systems of BattleMechs, the fragile modular coolant systems aboard OmniMechs consistently fail under the strain despite years of research by the Clans.

Then you try to apply physics claiming a mech would collapse under it's own weight and somehow because of that the coolant pod problems detailed on the sarna site should somehow no longer exist? Really? Lets see then, if mechs would collapse under their own weight how does mining equipment in use today stand up to the abuse of being operated over rough terrain carrying the weight of a few mechs for larger models? Here's an example for you, if you don't want to look around that page here's a link to the largest truck on the page. Shouldn't those trucks collapse under all that weight every time they hit a bump?

You are really reaching and only making yourself look desperate and foolish in this debate. You should probably stick to what you said about being done with this fight. You won't win.

Note: I'm just quoting so Rejarial can see Zylo's arguments (Rej blocked him). I'm out since logic, physics and simple reasoning can't make Rejarial understand what he's asking for.

Edited by Volthorne, 14 May 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[William Petersen]

Christopher Dayson, on 14 May 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Wait wait, physics don't matter now, but they matter in the other thread where people want super long range weapons and lights to survive heavy firepower from assaults unscathed...

Heh, Physics FTL.

Sometimes you just need to back away and let the idiots be idiots. Then again... I'm still hoping PGI slows down aiming and reduces armor again which makes speed a bigger factor.

While they're at it they can slow down refire rates, too. Make accuracy matter. Make it hard to be accurate.

[Rattlehead NZ]

Isn't this like complaining about your PC overheating while it's still on backorder?

At the moment the coolent flush system won't be added at release. If they were to add it i would say it would be released at the time of the clans where higher heat output weapons would make use of it. Also CF would be less effective the hotter your mech is? Great to use when you have to override a shutdown without going critical, but not a means of creating an energy spamming powerhouse.

Maybe at 100% heat you would drop by 10%, but if you were at 80% heat your would drop by 15% heat. And give it 1 minute cycle time before it can be used again.

BTW these ideas are based on game balancing and real physics rather than cannon. Would be a nice system in the future but have to be careful that it cant be abused.

[William Petersen]

Rattlehead NZ, on 14 May 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Isn't this like complaining about your PC overheating while it's still on backorder?

At the moment the coolent flush system won't be added at release. If they were to add it i would say it would be released at the time of the clans where higher heat output weapons would make use of it. Also CF would be less effective the hotter your mech is? Great to use when you have to override a shutdown without going critical, but not a means of creating an energy spamming powerhouse.

Maybe at 100% heat you would drop by 10%, but if you were at 80% heat your would drop by 15% heat. And give it 1 minute cycle time before it can be used again.

BTW these ideas are based on game balancing and real physics rather than cannon. Would be a nice system in the future but have to be careful that it cant be abused.

There's already a terrible, horribly ill-conceived, broken, power-creep solution to high heat weapons: Double Heat Sinks.

[Mike Silva]

Christopher Dayson, on 14 May 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Wait wait, physics don't matter now, but they matter in the other thread where people want super long range weapons and lights to survive heavy firepower from assaults unscathed...

Heh, Physics FTL.

Sometimes you just need to back away and let the idiots be idiots. Then again... I'm still hoping PGI slows down aiming and reduces armor again which makes speed a bigger factor.

this

[Volthorne]

Rattlehead NZ, on 14 May 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

BTW these ideas are based on game balancing and real physics rather than cannon. Would be a nice system in the future but have to be careful that it cant be abused.

I have the feeling you ignored the last two pages of arguing about this exact thing.