31 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

MaddMaxx, on 03 May 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I think bumping your Engine up from 62kph to 90kph should come with a 11.5 T weight increase.

Going from a standard engine to an XL of equal weight does not add weight.

[Havoc2]

Prosperity Park, on 03 May 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Going from a standard engine to an XL of equal weight does not add weight.

But that's not what Maxx said.

Sure, going from standard to XL of the same speed saves you weight, but it costs you space.

Bumping up an XL engine to add 50% to your top speed should add weight exponentially.

[AlanEsh]

Victor Morson, on 03 May 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Angelicon, on 03 May 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Clan mechs have a huge advantage in this area, which I think should be mitigated by breaking canon *gasp!*. Change the rules to 4 Engine crits needed to kill a mech, leave the XL engines as they are in TT, and profit (with any luck).

/edit -- and of course, each engine crit slows the mech and increases heat output.

I really feel that the advantages of an XL are worth the disadvantages.

Everyone keeps talking about how unfair it is that XLs may kill a 'mech from side torso destruction but don't forget you didn't have to mount an XL in the first place. Standard engine 'mechs are far more durable and that can lead a well designed standard 'mech like the Awesome to utterly decimate a far superior gunboat with an XL, like the Devastator.

People seem to have an entitlement complex for the ability to stick as many guns on their 'mechs as possible and don't want to have any drawbacks to doing it.

lol@entitlement complex. Can't anyone discuss things any more without tossing that B.S. into half the threads? How about looking at suggestions without the psychoanalysis? Because, the internet isn't a very good diagnosis couch.

So yeah On Topic:
My comment was actually looking ahead to the clan mechs being introduced. Their XL engines don't have enough disadvantages IMO. But in the name of making engagements a bit less random/volatile in damage progression, and not screwing over the IS so heavily in comparison to clan XL, I think my solution is really quite sensible.

Time to psychoanalyze you now... You're a raging clanner who doesn't want the IS to close the gap in any way. You're drooling over the idea of your Loki focus-firing IS XL mech's and killing them via RT/LT in two salvos, and you don't want anything to mitigate that.
Of course I'm just making that up, but that's what we do here eh? lol.

[Kudzu]

Angelicon, on 03 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

So yeah On Topic:
My comment was actually looking ahead to the clan mechs being introduced. Their XL engines don't have enough disadvantages IMO. But in the name of making engagements a bit less random/volatile in damage progression, and not screwing over the IS so heavily in comparison to clan XL, I think my solution is really quite sensible.

They pay for that advantage in increased BV.

[Victor Morson]

Angelicon, on 03 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

So yeah On Topic:
My comment was actually looking ahead to the clan mechs being introduced. Their XL engines don't have enough disadvantages IMO. But in the name of making engagements a bit less random/volatile in damage progression, and not screwing over the IS so heavily in comparison to clan XL, I think my solution is really quite sensible.

That is, really, part of what makes Clan 'mechs Clan 'mechs. Not that a Clan 'mech with two engine hits is going to be operating at anything resembling peak capacity anyway: They really don't even use standard engines on Omnis, so unlike IS XL you can count on crippling a Clanner through the side torso.

Angelicon, on 03 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Time to psychoanalyze you now... You're a raging clanner who doesn't want the IS to close the gap in any way. You're drooling over the idea of your Loki focus-firing IS XL mech's and killing them via RT/LT in two salvos, and you don't want anything to mitigate that.
Of course I'm just making that up, but that's what we do here eh? lol.

You seriously missed the mark on that one, I'm pretty much a die hard InnerSphere pilot; I've been in Leagues as both a house unit for Marik and as the Blazing Aces, an IS Mercenary unit. Right now I'm pretty committed to bumping our reputation up with FRR to fight the Clan invasion right at the front as suicidal as it is, provided they let us battle it out and don't just change the map (I'm really, really hoping that's the case).

I'm also a huge supporter of Standard engines and if I'm optimizing a design, will almost always operate with one, even if it lowers my speed or guns, outside of recon. In table top matches time and time again the "inferior" standard engine forces end up taking the day.

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 May 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[Pht]

"maybe"...



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Oh well. At least I can say I tried.

Fool me once, shame on you .... fool me twice, shame on me.

Edited by Pht, 03 May 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Fool me three times, and four times... because I will keep checking the forums...

[EDMW CSN]

The GB and SV would like to have a word with people who think Clanners do not have standard engine Omnis.
The Kingfisher and Executioner are often brothers in arms and the Kingfisher uses a standard engine.

Steel Viper's Battle Cobra and the Crossbow comes to mind as well. And all 3 are Invader Clan designs. The Stooping Hawk deserves a mention but it is a Home Clan design though according to Sarna, Ghost bear does field a number of these.

But then again Clans never really care much about cost, except for a select few, hence many of their designs packed XL engines.

[MaddMaxx]

Prosperity Park, on 03 May 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Going from a standard engine to an XL of equal weight does not add weight.

If we apply the same speed increase principle to XL based engines, the Engine would weigh in at 5 tons heavier. Is that better?

[AlanEsh]

Victor Morson, on 03 May 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

That is, really, part of what makes Clan 'mechs Clan 'mechs. Not that a Clan 'mech with two engine hits is going to be operating at anything resembling peak capacity anyway: They really don't even use standard engines on Omnis, so unlike IS XL you can count on crippling a Clanner through the side torso.

Oh I fully agree the clan mechs should have better XL engines, but there is a rather large difference between limping away at walking speed, and ejecting. This game is going to be full of random, non-Battletech savvy types, and if they implement IS XL engines in such a gimped manner, they will migrate to clan mechs in droves.

Quote

You seriously missed the mark on that one, I'm pretty much a die hard InnerSphere pilot; I've been in Leagues as both a house unit for Marik and as the Blazing Aces, an IS Mercenary unit. Right now I'm pretty committed to bumping our reputation up with FRR to fight the Clan invasion right at the front as suicidal as it is, provided they let us battle it out and don't just change the map (I'm really, really hoping that's the case).

I intentionally missed the mark for, apparently poor, demonstration purposes.

Quote

I'm also a huge supporter of Standard engines and if I'm optimizing a design, will almost always operate with one, even if it lowers my speed or guns, outside of recon. In table top matches time and time again the "inferior" standard engine forces end up taking the day.

Yep, IS Standard engine durability can make the difference in a balanced fight. But unless you really skew the mech numbers, the IS standards are going to lose to the clan XL mechs the vast majority of the time.

[Sprouticus]

I would prefer one of 3 options:

1) Use the TT rules.

This should be the default IMO. I have read all of the srguments before and I just dont see anything compelling to suggest why you would not make it a kill. As pointed out, it is a HUGE advantage having an XL engine (not quite as good as Endo, but close)

2) If after testing that it turns out that in a MW environment it is too easy to kill XL engines (with the caveat that it is a BALANCE issue, and that the engines provide significant advantages), then the next test would be bumping it to 4 engine crits requesred for a kill.

This also raises the toughness of standard engines however, so you would have to monitor that. I dont think this would be as big an advantage as everyone thinks, severely reduce speed is going to mean you are going to die fairly quickly in many cases.

3) A third option would be to lower the number of crits in the IS XL to match the clan, thus only putting 2 engine crits in each torso. This would be a radical change from TT, but would kill 2 birds with one stone, making IS XL engines more reliable and lessening the advantage of clan XL engines.

Again, I would go with option 1 until there was significant evidence that XL engines were handicapped compared to what they brought to the table. I am a huge fan of the XL as a method of tradeoff, and by lessening or removing the tradeoff you make the system less interesting, and make upgrading to XL an automatic step. It also means that if you cannot upgrade engines (or the cost is crazy high) that standard engine mechs will be shelved.

[THELONGSHANKS]

[EDMW]CSN, on 03 May 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Make a slight change.

1st engine hit: Generate 5 extra heat, 15% reduction in top speed, HUD intermittently stutters.
2nd engine hit: Generate 10 extra heat, 30% reduction in top speed, HUD messed up. Convergence slows down.
3rd engine hit: Generate 15 extra heat, 50% reduction in top speed, HUD messed up. Convergence slows down and weapons intermittently fail to fire.
4th engine hit: Kaboom.

Because the way I see it, XL engines are already too good.

I like this i idea, but I would make it more severe, like
10 extra heat 25% reduction in speed
15 extra heat 50% reduction in speed
20 extra heat 75% reduction in speed
with chance rolls to skip a step or immediately destuct. The way I see it if you're taking direct hits to your engine, you should go down FAST, also if your opponents have repeatedly pinpointed the same spot, they should be rewarded, and vice a versa