32 replies to this topic

[Yeach]

Is this possible in Battletech tabletop?

4 x 15 heat = 60 heat which is greater than the 50 heatscale
Or do heatsinks work immediately in TT so a maskari Prime with 20 DHS (-40 heat) can fire 4 ERPPCs?

[Stormblast]

A hellstar can do it in tabletop, if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar

Edited by Stormblast, 18 March 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[geck0 icaza]

Yeach, on 18 March 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Is this possible in Battletech tabletop?

4 x 15 heat = 60 heat which is greater than the 50 heatscale
Or do heatsinks work immediately in TT so a maskari Prime with 20 DHS (-40 heat) can fire 4 ERPPCs?

well, it can, but it will end up with 20 heat plus anything else he does. So next turn, he will be slower, have a harder time aiming, and the ammo from his LRMs might explode. In the TT there's really no point IMO to having that kind of heat curving after 1 volley of fire. But in the game you can rotate the shots and keep up a decent rate of fire without instantly spiking the heat scale. The heat curve of the game and the fire rate of the PPC in this game will determine how effective it is to have such an arsenal. I'm hopeful, and I hope that weapons and damage and speed will be as such the canon configs will not only be viable but competitive. [which has never once been the case IMO]

[EDMW CSN]

Only the Hellstar can do that. The closest the IS can get is the AWS-9Q Awesome which has 4 PPCs, 1 small laser and 1 guardian ECM. Although I would prefer dropping the Guardian + the small and use 2 tons for med lasers instead.

Even then, in the context of MWO... The 9Q will be devastating.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 18 March 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[Arctic Fox]

Yes, heat sinks in the tabletop games sink heat simultaneously as you're gaining it, so the Hellstar with 30 Clan double heat sinks can alpha strike its quad ER PPCs without heating up at all (unless it moves). Incidentally, while you can in fact do so, if you're above the heat scale you're both automatically dead from ammunition explosion or automatically shut down if the former failed to kill you.

[LordDeathStrike]

er ppcs are best fired in succession or pairs

[Strum Wealh]

[EDMW]CSN, on 18 March 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Only the Hellstar can do that. The closest the IS can get is the AWS-9Q Awesome which has 4 PPCs, 1 small laser and 1 guardian ECM. Although I would prefer dropping the Guardian + the small and use 2 tons for med lasers instead.

Even then, in the context of MWO... The 9Q will be devastating.

ANH-1E Annihilator can do it with four standard PPCs (and six Medium Lasers).

Quote

ANH-1E - This field-expedient refit was used by the Dragoons after the Battle of Misery. All of the autocannons were removed and replaced with four PPCs and two additional Medium Lasers. The ANH-1E also carried forty-one heat sinks, enough to fire the main weapons continually.

As far as four ER-PPCs, the only 'Mechs that I can think of that could do it are the primary variant of the Hellstar, a modified ANH-1E (IS ER-PPCs are the same weight and bulk as standard IS PPCs, so exchanging the latter for the former is relatively trivial), a modified AWS-9Q (though, with fewer Heat Sinks - 19 Double Heat Sinks, or effectively 38 Heat Sinks - than the ANH-1E, it wouldn't do so quite as well), and a modified Supernova (exchanging the six Clan ER Large Lasers for four Clan ER-PPCs, and maintaining the 26 Double Heat Sinks (effectively 52 Heat Sinks)).

[Thorn Hallis]

[EDMW]CSN, on 18 March 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Only the Hellstar can do that. The closest the IS can get is the AWS-9Q Awesome which has 4 PPCs, 1 small laser and 1 guardian ECM. Although I would prefer dropping the Guardian + the small and use 2 tons for med lasers instead.

Even then, in the context of MWO... The 9Q will be devastating.

Hope we will only see the basic variants of the Awesome. The 9Q would be too badass I think.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 19 March 2012 - 03:15 AM.

[SnowDragon]

Arctic Fox, on 18 March 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Yes, heat sinks in the tabletop games sink heat simultaneously as you're gaining it, so the Hellstar with 30 Clan double heat sinks can alpha strike its quad ER PPCs without heating up at all (unless it moves). Incidentally, while you can in fact do so, if you're above the heat scale you're both automatically dead from ammunition explosion or automatically shut down if the former failed to kill you.

I was fairly sure that Heat above 30 was just over doing it, and it went onto the extra heat scale (Just a number of extra heat you had to dissapate in order to move again). But that's 1707 Classic rules.

[Strum Wealh]

Thorn Hallis, on 19 March 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Hope we will only see the basic variants of the Awesome. The 9Q would be too badass I think.

Well, the AWS-9Q is listed as having been introduced in 3057, so it "should" be some time yet before that particular variant is available in MWO.
That leaves the AWS-8R, AWS-8Q, AWS-8T, AWS-8V, and AWS-9M (and modifications thereon), yes?

However, the Hellstar "shouldn't" be available (in MWO) until 3079, the Annihilator "should" be exclusive to the Wolf's Dragoons until the Jihad, and the Supernova is a Clan 'Mech...

-----

Arctic Fox, on 18 March 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Yes, heat sinks in the tabletop games sink heat simultaneously as you're gaining it, so the Hellstar with 30 Clan double heat sinks can alpha strike its quad ER PPCs without heating up at all (unless it moves). Incidentally, while you can in fact do so, if you're above the heat scale you're both automatically dead from ammunition explosion or automatically shut down if the former failed to kill you.

SnowDragon, on 19 March 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I was fairly sure that Heat above 30 was just over doing it, and it went onto the extra heat scale (Just a number of extra heat you had to dissapate in order to move again). But that's 1707 Classic rules.

"During the Heat Phase of every turn, each player adds up the heat points built up by his ’Mech, as well as any heat from outside sources. He then subtracts the heat dissipated by heat sinks and any additional dissipation if his ’Mech occupies a water hex."
- Total Warfare, pg. 159

"A Hatamoto-Chi begins a turn with a Heat Scale reading of 4. During the turn, it fires both its PPCs and walks (generating 21 heat points). The BattleMech only has sixteen standard heat sinks working. They dissipate 16 heat points, leaving 5 to build up. During the Heat Phase, these 5 points are added to the 4 already on the Heat Scale, bringing the total to 9. In the next turn, the ’Mech must reduce its Walking MP by 1 (giving it a Walking MP of 3 and a Running MP of 5) and add +1 to its to-hit number for weapon attacks."
- Total Warfare, pg. 160

So, it doesn't sound like it's changed - heat sinks sink heat during the same turn in which said heat is generated, with excess heat being carried over into subsequent turns and the 'Mech shutting down if the 'Mech ends the turn with its heat level above the threshold (and not having hit the Avoid Number).

[Siphonaptera]

Yeach, on 18 March 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Is this possible in Battletech tabletop?

4 x 15 heat = 60 heat which is greater than the 50 heatscale
Or do heatsinks work immediately in TT so a maskari Prime with 20 DHS (-40 heat) can fire 4 ERPPCs?

If by immediately you mean over the 10 seconds of the turn, yes.

[Yeach]

Thanks for the replies.

Always thought it should be prohibitive to alpha fire 4 ERPPCs (especially Clan ones) risking possibly a shut-down even with enough heatsinks.

In the novels it is mentioned that heat is felt immediately after it is fired even from mechs that have enough heatsinks;
What would firing a 4 ERPPCs feel like?
Would you get an intense heatspike for a few seconds before the heatsinks take over to cool you down?

[Arctic Fox]

Yeach, on 19 March 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Thanks for the replies.

Always thought it should be prohibitive to alpha fire 4 ERPPCs (especially Clan ones) risking possibly a shut-down even with enough heatsinks.

In the novels it is mentioned that heat is felt immediately after it is fired even from mechs that have enough heatsinks;
What would firing a 4 ERPPCs feel like?
Would you get an intense heatspike for a few seconds before the heatsinks take over to cool you down?

If you're literally firing all four at once, rather than over the course of the 10-second turn, then yes, and in this case 'intense' is enough to kill or shut you down. Under the Solaris VII rules, which had 2.5 second turns, firing four ER PPCs at once would generate 240 heat, so a Hellstar, for example, would immediately be at 180 heat after an alpha strike (automatic shutdown is at 120 under that ruleset) and take four turns to cool down.

[Volume]

Siphonaptera, on 19 March 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

If by immediately you mean over the 10 seconds of the turn, yes.

Was gonna say..."Instantly" not so much, but "over a short period of time" yes...

[Pht]

Yeach, on 18 March 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Is this possible in Battletech tabletop?

4 x 15 heat = 60 heat which is greater than the 50 heatscale
Or do heatsinks work immediately in TT so a maskari Prime with 20 DHS (-40 heat) can fire 4 ERPPCs?

A BT turn is 10 seconds, FYI.

What do you mean by "can it be done?" ... of course it can... you could theoretically have a mech with nearly 60 Clan ER large lasers fire them all at once, if you didn't care about the waste heat.

If you mean it dumps all that heat in one turn... it's possible, but only by building a 'mech that almost certainly would not exist in the BTU.

You have to dump 60 or 62 points of heat, which means 30 or 31 heatsinks. In order to get enough space you have to use a compact fusion engine, or a compact gyro along with a compact cockpit.

[ENDMYSUFFERING]

Shooting a 4 ERPPC alpha-strike...

Will result in an instant shutdown.

[The Boneshaman]

I use a program called Heavy Metal Pro to design mechs. Yes it is posible. i made a 100 tonner with a 3/5 movement 4 ERPPC 1ECM and 31 DHS clan tech. its not posible with IS tech due to weight and bulk for IS DHS.

Edited by The Boneshaman, 20 March 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[Sychodemus]

LordDeathStrike, on 18 March 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

er ppcs are best fired in succession or pairs

....or all together when used with a Targeting Computer and you are just that good

[NineTails]

Possible? Sure. There's no reason you can't in the rules, which are fairly clear on the order of operations involved. You declare the fire, roll the dice, and deal with the consequences in the heat phase. If your to-hits are good and you're not carrying ammo that might cook off, it's even a good idea in some circumstances.

[Karl Streiger]

Not possible with IS-technology. Maximum heat capacity is 58... for a 100t assault with a 400 rated engine.
As mentioned the Hellstar...is able to fire all of its PPC per CBT turn
Even when using solaris rules: the Hellstar is able to fire once per turn a single ppc without overheating...must be the only mech that is able to do this.