63 replies to this topic

[Hobietime]

At the risk of sounding pedantic kinetic energy is the mass times the velocity squared. ​It makes sense to me that the knockback would be non-linear with the A/Cs. I haven't played enough to see if this is game breaking but I could see how it could be a realistic model but not a very fun one.

[Ryvucz]

I run around with three of them on my Hunchback, chain fire. I'll rock you like a hurricane.

[Esarai]

I get where everyone's coming from on the side of realism, but I think it may be necessary, just for gameplay, for the AC2 to have significant impulse so it can stand a chance against heavier weapons. Just balance-wise. But I do agree that if we're going for realism the AC2 shouldn't have that much effect.

The underlying suggestion of the OP, though, I think would be wonderful--have the knock generated by ballistic weapons change in relation to the weight of your mech--I'd love to see that.

I've rolled a dual-AC2 Dragon before, got paired up with a triple-AC2 hunchie one match, we parked on top of a hill and commenced a suppressing fire mission. Worked pretty well, then an Atlas got fed up and started waddling toward us all 'Hahahaha your dinky cannons are no match for--' then he noticed that his entire front torso had been stripped clean of armor in the course of about 10 seconds, and pulled the fastest about face I've ever seen an Atlas do.

[Grym]

Last match, only the sound of AC2's could be heard.

Dragons, Cents, and Phracts...Both team were mainly manned by them.

I thought it was funncy until 2 Cents and a Phract got on me. I was shredded (arms/torso) in 4 seconds, cored 3 seconds after that.

I dont really mind the damage, 3 people focus firing produces those results. But the screen shake just mad it not fun at all. Like someone punching me in the balls repeatedly.

[LtPoncho]

xXBagheeraXx, on 21 November 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

quad ac2's ARE troll builds...

Really now? We're you saying the same thing about the 4xLarge Laser builds? How about 9 MLAS builds or 6 ERPPC biulds?

If the coat fits...I mean seriously - loading out on your hardpoints will be a reality. Let it go and move on.

[Quazil]

Kobura, on 21 November 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Just a note, 4xAC2 are some of the best DPS in the game bar none, not even factoring range.

2x damage 2x a second. 4DPS per gun. The Quad2 builds out-DPS four gauss rifles, albeit requiring much more accuracy over a longer time.

So, ten seconds, Gauss fires twice for 30 with a bit of cooldown left for a third shot, AC2 has fired TWENTY TIMES for FORTY DAMAGE.

The knockabout is pure cake, friends. I'm not complaining about the AC2, only providing a bit of insight into why they're so powerful. Change them? Reduce knockabout significantly, evaluate results, then perhaps change recharge to .75 seconds instead of .5 if they're still kings of the battlefield. Otherwise they're good, personal opinion.

FYI: You've been able to stick two of them on an Atlas' hip for a long, long time now... 2x better-DPS-than-Gauss guns are still very good!

An AC2 should do 2 damage not 4.
If anyone has numbers for firing delay I would welcome them, ignore firing delay the DPS for a guass-rifle is 3.33 and the DPS for an AC2 is 2. The x4 allows you to pack 4 AC2's for a DPS of 8 or 2 guass for a DPS of 6.66.
The 4x AC5 is superior on this point with a DPS 2.5 for a total of 10.

OK I just found out they dropped the cooldown time of the AC2 from 1s to 0.5s.
This is horribly broken.

Hobietime, on 21 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

At the risk of sounding pedantic kinetic energy is the mass times the velocity squared. ​It makes sense to me that the knockback would be non-linear with the A/Cs. I haven't played enough to see if this is game breaking but I could see how it could be a realistic model but not a very fun one.

Damage from kinetic rounds is determined by the kinetic energy they deliver.
Less damage means less kinetic punch means less knock-back.

Edited by Quazil, 21 November 2012 - 09:59 PM.

[Ryan Steiner]

Quazil, on 21 November 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

An AC2 should do 2 damage not 4.
If anyone has numbers for firing delay I would welcome them, ignore firing delay the DPS for a guass-rifle is 3.33 and the DPS for an AC2 is 2. The x4 allows you to pack 4 AC2's for a DPS of 8 or 2 guass for a DPS of 6.66.
The 4x AC5 is superior on this point with a DPS 2.5 for a total of 10.



Damage from kinetic rounds is determined by the kinetic energy they deliver.
Less damage means less kinetic punch means less knock-back.

Learn2math and appear smarter.

AC/2 does 2 damage per shot. Fires every .5 seconds. So an AC/2 fires twice a second at 2 damage per shot and this equals 4 damage per second. YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!1!!1one!!!

*edit* Just saw your edit. Now we're all on the same page. Bacon time!!!

Edited by Ryan Steiner, 21 November 2012 - 09:57 PM.

[Ectar]

AC2 knocking has no physical justification.

theta123, on 21 November 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Also keep in mind guys, the AC/2 has the longest range

This means, the highest velocity
This means, VERY HIGH KINETIC IMPACT power

The 'damage" is low, because the projectile is small. But the kinetic energy is very high, wich actually justifies the high knock back

Well Gauss has 1200 m/s, not much slower then 2000, but slug is MUCH heavier and travel pretty much the same distance, but there is no knock, almost none, By all laws of physics small mechs should be just nailed to the nearest rock by Gauss slug ....l but it is not happening, so can somebody explain to me why?

Here is my explanation that AC/2 knock is pure fake

KE = 1/2 (M * (V * V))

1/2 (100kg * (1200^2)) = 72000000 Joules For Gauss

1/2 (13.3kg * (2000^2)) = 26600000 Joules For AC2

1/2 (142kg * (750^2)) = 39937500 Joules For AC20


AC2 has 3 times less then energy then Gauss....what kind of VERY HIGH KINETIC IMPACT are you talking about ?

[Roadbuster]

I agree with the OP. Impact knock should be linked to the calibre of the weapon AND the tonnage of the mech you shoot at.
A shot from an AC/2 might shake the cockpit of a Commando, Raven or Jenner, but it should have little impact on an Atlas.
A shot from an AC/20 or Gauss should give a light mech a heavy blow and even knock an Atlas pretty bad.

Also AC shots shouldn't dimm your screen.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Insidious Johnson, on 21 November 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I am confused as to why ac2s have the most knock but the least power? Shouldn't ac20s have severe knock about and a chance to tumble another mech? It should scale down from there into the nothing that ac2s should be. What we have seems to be the opposite of that.

2 things:
1. Knock should be based on momentum, which takes into account mass of the projectile as well as acceleration.
2. Knocks should only occur on headshots. Getting shot in the foot doesnt count PGI

[kaeh]

I reading a lot of people defending the shake generated by ballistic weapons, (which I also think should be determined by the caliber of the weapon), but have in mind that every ballistic weapon has recoil, so if a single AC2 is able to rock a 100tn mech, your firing arms or torso should finish pointing to the sky with every single shot, anyone likes PGI to do this also?

[Sprouticus]

xXBagheeraXx, on 21 November 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

With enough distance you can simply sidestep a bit...a lot of the ac2 spammers cant lead for ****. My usual death-sentence is getting charged by one at close range or caught in the open...the close range ones i can hit, but it can be rather frustrating to hit the same section with the constant knocking. The reason why I dislike the knocking effect being as strong as it is it that most people are using them JUST for that knock feature...they know the target cannot return fire...its not for the hgih dps, or "suppressive fire" its a cheese build, Nothing more. Quad ac2 cataphracts are about as cheesy to me as the inferno rocket+artillery strike cheese mechs I used to fight in mechwarrior 4...

Ac2's in TT had minimum range if I remember correctly. Im not saying they should in MWO, but that would certainly eliminate the AC2 infighter.

I tend to agree. Reduce knock by roughly 50% and its all good.

[xCopperhead]

While I will agree somewhat that the AC2 knock is severe. It is one of the few good ways to counter a Gausscat. The other thing to consider is that with the Dual Gauss build you only need 10 hs. The AC2 does generate a lot of heat as a consequence of that fast fire rate. A lot of the 4 AC2 Cataphracts are running with a heat efficiency somewhere around a 1.0 or lower. So sustained fire is only possible from half the array of weapons.

The DPS might be high on the AC2, but you do have to keep them on target.

All of that being said, yes reducing the cockpit shake on them would probably be a good idea. I think the reason it seems so bad is the fact that a smart player is hitting you with another round every .5s so he just keeps the rock going.

[Kobura]

Ladies and gentlemen I point you to the facts.

There had to be some sacrifices made (lasers' duration, potential of PPC's splash, UAC variables, and inaccuracy) but such is the nature of the statistics.

https://docs.google....5QRHd5Wnc#gid=0

[Sir Roland MXIII]

No offense but I got a laugh out of the OP. I sat in front of a quad deuce Cataphract 4X with my double deuce / double UAC5 4X, trading fire with him on Frozen, for the express purpose of seeing which weapon loudout would win. Neither of us stopped firing at each other and, on my end, I hit 3/4 or more of the time, and he had little problem hitting me, judging by the lovely infernal noise of eating AC2 shells.

I also won. Quad deuces aren't the greatest. Much like the OP here, I got a laugh out of that quad-gun mech.

That's despite the AC2 rounds I was taking, btw. "I can't hit anything with my cockpit rocking" is a myth.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 22 November 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[FireLark]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 22 November 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

No offense but I got a laugh out of the OP. I sat in front of a quad deuce Cataphract 4X with my double deuce / double UAC5 4X, trading fire with him on Frozen, for the express purpose of seeing which weapon loudout would win. Neither of us stopped firing at each other and, on my end, I hit 3/4 or more of the time, and he had little problem hitting me, judging by the lovely infernal noise of eating AC2 shells.

I also won. Quad deuces aren't the greatest. Much like the OP here, I got a laugh out of that quad-gun mech.

That's despite the AC2 rounds I was taking, btw. "I can't hit anything with my cockpit rocking" is a myth.

at close range the rock doesn't matter but past 100m it makes it impossible to track a target

[Tibrogargan]

Hobietime, on 21 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

At the risk of sounding pedantic kinetic energy is the mass times the velocity squared. ​It makes sense to me that the knockback would be non-linear with the A/Cs. I haven't played enough to see if this is game breaking but I could see how it could be a realistic model but not a very fun one.

Your math seems to assume that damage is proportional to velocity, which is incorrect. Damage would be proportional to energy. So an AC2 round would not weigh 1/10th that of an AC20 round, rather the amount of energy it imparts to the target is 1/10th that of the AC20 round, taking both mass and velocity into account.

The knock/rock effect should be proportional both to the energy of the round AND to the mass of the target (accounting for inertia/momentum). i.e. A light mech should be getting knocked around more than an assault mech. i.e. An atlas should pretty much shrug off AC2 fire from a single weapon whereas my poor jenner should possibly be thrown through walls by an AC20 (not much fun to take, but pretty damn fun to watch)

Edited by Tibrogargan, 22 November 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

FireLark, on 22 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

at close range the rock doesn't matter but past 100m it makes it impossible to track a target

Thats hilarious considering we were 200+ meters apart. In all seriousness, and no offense intended, all I hear when people whine about cockpit rock is they can't aim, lack the patience and desire to firgure out how to ignore shake, and sometimes lack the guts to stay in that fight and instead turn and run, only to die tired.

[Deadoon]

Ectar, on 21 November 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

AC2 knocking has no physical justification.



Well Gauss has 1200 m/s, not much slower then 2000, but slug is MUCH heavier and travel pretty much the same distance, but there is no knock, almost none, By all laws of physics small mechs should be just nailed to the nearest rock by Gauss slug ....l but it is not happening, so can somebody explain to me why?

Here is my explanation that AC/2 knock is pure fake

KE = 1/2 (M * (V * V))

1/2 (100kg * (1200^2)) = 72000000 Joules For Gauss

1/2 (13.3kg * (2000^2)) = 26600000 Joules For AC2

1/2 (142kg * (750^2)) = 39937500 Joules For AC20


AC2 has 3 times less then energy then Gauss....what kind of VERY HIGH KINETIC IMPACT are you talking about ?

The gauss round is compact enough to rip through the armor(5 damage pen), increasing it's impact time, and compade the diference between the ac/2 and the 20. The ac/2 has ~2/3 the impact energy due to the immense speed of the round.

Also anecdotal evidence does not constitute the majority of players.

Sprouticus, on 22 November 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Ac2's in TT had minimum range if I remember correctly. Im not saying they should in MWO, but that would certainly eliminate the AC2 infighter.

I tend to agree. Reduce knock by roughly 50% and its all good.

The minimum distance merely made it harder to hit rather than easier under 120m due to it was a high velocity gun.

Edited by Deadoon, 22 November 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[RragnarR40k]

So bacause you get focused by ac2 or ultra ac5 fire you automatically assume that the shaking makes the weapon broken???

That's kinda lame...!!

SRM - shakes
SSRM - shakes
LRM - shakes


SSRM pults do more damage and shake you just as much if not worse, excuse me, but I fail to see how a weapon like an ac that actually takes a little skill to hit with, unless your target is a dullwit standing still shooting duck, is in anyway op or too good because of the shake...

Also for everyone that is so focused on the dps of AC2's and 5's, - these weapons are not autohit - they require skill to use. DPS is fine if you hit but **** if you miss. Bigger damage weapons focus down single armour locations much faster than fast fire rate projectile weapons due to the weapon being harder to aim at the same location when shooting a moving target...

The shaking actually doesn't shake your aim at all, so if you stay cool and don't panic and just keep your reticle at the center of the red square as good as you can manage if the target is moving you'll still hit just as nice as before. Meaning, DON'T panic and you'll do fine..

I recommend trying these weapons out for real before you cry nerf...

I'd like to see you do 600+ dps with 4 ac2's - haven't seen that yet...

Lots of other builds that outperform ac's on full battles.

And keep in mind - AC's are heat ********, you will run hot unless you equip a lot of heatsinks/double-heatsinks.


Only weapons that are op and broken imho are the SRM and SSRM

6 x 15 damage SSRM pult - crazy damage to a mech and especially when most missiles hit the same location when fired on close range...

Edited by RragnarR40k, 22 November 2012 - 05:41 PM.