145 replies to this topic

[Hayashi]

On a side note, I would like to add that using the 'B' function to 'Take Command' helps with compliance. PuGs are usually more cooperative when your name appears in yellow and has the (Commmander) tag attached to it. I'm not going to speculate why this is the case, but there's no reason for me not to do it when it improves the team's chances of victory. It also gives some nifty map location indicators that are very useful for setting up ambushes - far superior than just 'D6'.

I like it when someone other than me does the job so I don't have to multitask so much, but even when rolling with 4-man premades in my PuG team (when I drop as a PuG), even premades rarely use the Command function properly to communicate with players. It really does help.

... it goes without saying that I don't use the Command function when premades announce their presence in the start of a match. They usually have their own command structures and plans, and even if their plans are suboptimal, total adherence to a suboptimal plan is preferable to splitting the instructions between a PuG faction and a premade faction in the same team. When someone else attempts to direct the battle in chat, I just let them do their thing, and we'll see how the results go.

A premade has never, in my experience, listened to a PuG commander. Probably because they almost never come across one.

That said the lack of coordination and command in the usual PuG game is so conspicuously absent that I usually end up doing it, unless I'm multitasking playing the game and dealing with forum issues at the same time. I would rather the guys with me win.

Tactical positioning and formations are important enough that all of my Mech builds are highly geared towards speed - by this I don't just mean a 149 KPH Jenner, I mean taking a large engine on my Heavy chassis as well. It takes up space that could go to weapons, but sacrificing 10-15% firepower in order to position your team to do weapons fire that is 300% more concentrated is more than a fair exchange.

When you can't be sure there will always be a good scout, you do it yourself, even as a Heavy. When you can't be sure there's going to be coordination and command, you assume those roles yourself. Complaining about how others don't do the job for you is not going to help your team win.

Assault Mechs are good at neither since they're slow, easy to hit and difficult to reposition quickly, so I probably won't be piloting one any time soon.

Edited by Hayashi, 22 November 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Bogus]

I agree that phase 1 in many ways combines the worst aspects of both premade and pug and 2 can't come soon enough, but it's absolutely hilarious to watch those who spent months lecturing the dirty puggers to change playstyle to satisfy their narrative of what MWO is squirm so hard when the shoe is on the other foot.

Personally, as a full time pugger I'm more than happy to follow a plan if one is given but usually nobody says anything so whatever. Also, when a plan is given and it does not involve everyone sticking together (which for the record can work very well if the goal is capping rather than KO), those giving the plan should be aware that there's a good chance the entire enemy team is going to come crashing down on the other group and they'll melt fast. I see this a lot on the maps that have a cave/tunnel approach, as the plan is often to go one way and a couple of people watch the other.

[cmopatrick]

Greers, on 22 November 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

Imagine a real world General ignoring the actions of his troops (getting stuck on hard ressistance, routing...) and just continues as planned. He'd fail miserably, cause the "Real World" ist not like his planning predicted.

spot on. having just passed Veteran's Day here in the US (the anniversary of the armistice that ended WWI), i might point interested persons to Plan 17: it was the French plan in place at the start of WWI, and the French CiC Joffre's unwillingness to adapt when overwhelming evidence on the ground showed fatal flaws in the plan and its assumptions. it was only errors on the German side that kept their right wing from Paris and complete envelopment of the French armies.

Dak Darklighter, on 22 November 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

It would be a lot easier if the users who favour premade games stopped using 'sir' and 'friend' as if they came from the 18th century, smoking a pipe with a monocle in a display of gentlemanship. No one is taking you people seriously.

Dak Darklighter, on 22 November 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Maybe commonplace over 100 years ago, it has no place in today's language as it is associated with sarcasm and condescending.

well, some of us were brought up a wee bit different, and serving in the military reinforced some amount of the same. i find a lot of the language some folks use offensive, but i refrain from implying that they should show some respect and act like what i would consider an adult.

you may be 40 or you may be 15, but no matter how popular it is, respect is still respect. i do find it a wee bit odd that your post disparagingly equates our extending common courtesy with "sarcasm and condescending." and yet both your posts reflect exactly that (the "sarcasm and condescending"). if you somehow feel inferior to those who want to be polite, perhaps you might find it worth understanding why we think it is important... failing that, perhaps you are mature enough to just ignore it like we do the language that i have limited reason to doubt would be your preferred voice.

Hayashi, on 22 November 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

On a side note, I would like to add that using the 'B' function to 'Take Command' helps with compliance. PuGs are usually more cooperative when your name appears in yellow and has the (Commmander) tag attached to it. I'm not going to speculate why this is the case, but there's no reason for me not to do it when it improves the team's chances of victory. It also gives some nifty map location indicators that are very useful for setting up ambushes - far superior than just 'D6'.
...
A premade has never, in my experience, listened to a PuG commander. Probably because they almost never come across one.
...
When you can't be sure there will always be a good scout, you do it yourself, even as a Heavy. When you can't be sure there's going to be coordination and command, you assume those roles yourself.

while i agree with much of your post, i would like to note that using B requires time and both taking your eyes off the battle and losing control of your mech. for a back line, that works much better than a front line or deep scout (where either is usually not a good idea). (added in edit:) i would think having the option to show an enlarged map off center in the hud with a slightly reduced version of info the battle map has would make solo TACCOM much easier (the one at the bottom is useless for the role. upper left would be my preferred location. along the same lines, having enemy designations ("A", "B", etc.) show on targets in the battle map would be a HUGE help, even with it in it's current state.

btw, i have run as TACCOM while a pug... and they did pay attention a lot better than otherwise. now i grant that i had to be in an lrm cat to do it, but it has been done. not saying successfully, i do not belong in a cat and died to a light while trying to help coordinate, but it has been done. of course, i do not know if any pre was there, if so, they might just have gone with the flow.

one note to nascent TACCOMs, be considerate. if you don't know what you are doing (familiar with the map in question and at least common strats on it), you probably should not take the reigns. if you do, remember that others (especially if not on comms) do not know that. for the rest of us, remember that what works in face to face communications is more likely to get cooperation: suggesting is better than ordering, positive feedback is better than rage, and supporting your weakest link helps keep your drop from being man (or woman) down.

on your final point, i might also suggest we be willing to adapt our own plans to meet the needs of the group. if i am a deep scout but my group has no use for my seeing movements on the far side of the map and thereby loses my limited firepower and distraction value, i have failed my team... be they solo pugs or dropship pugs.

Edited by cmopatrick, 22 November 2012 - 12:32 PM.

[Hakkukakt]

hum ... i m playing both PUG and PreTEAM ... and for me ... that's not a problem to answer to a commander ...

no the problem for me (and it's bigger on PUB then on PreTEAM) , the problem is "Is the commander a good commander or not ?"

yeps .. i'have allready see someone take command => "ok all go trhoug cave" .... hum "ok, roger"

=> bad idea ... the cave ended in all die because embush in ... and no new instruction for what to do for go out from the situation...

=> and on the end, the commander go out/ragequit with this word "What's the f..ing team i m playing with ?" (so on same time he is the first dead ^^)

so ... when i dont know the commander ... hum will be a little suspicious on the order ...

Edited by Hakkukakt, 22 November 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Batch1972]

Guys,

Just a question.. how many servers are there? If there one and the game is global then potentially you are going to get language problems. I've been in a group that only spoke german.
Other thing to consider is demographic - how many players are kids - stranger danger ring a bell...

The bottom line is everyone needs to be a little more accommodating until some form of ingame chat/command/grouping can be implemented. If you're a premade you should announce it at the start and ask (note: not demand) if people would mind following your plan. This game's is still in development, people are going to ctd, people are going to be new, people are going to make mistakes.


“When one treats people with benevolence, justice, and righteousness, and reposes confidence in them, the army will be united in mind and all will be happy to serve their leaders'.”
― Sun Tzu

[Hayashi]

cmopatrick, on 22 November 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

one note to nascent TACCOMs, be considerate. if you don't know what you are doing (familiar with the map in question and at least common strats on it), you probably should not take the reigns. if you do, remember that others (especially if not on comms) do not know that. for the rest of us, remember that what works in face to face communications is more likely to get cooperation: suggesting is better than ordering, positive feedback is better than rage, and supporting your weakest link helps keep your drop from being man (or woman) down. on your final point, i might also suggest we be willing to adapt our own plans to meet the needs of the group. if i am a deep scout but my group has no use for my seeing movements on the far side of the map and thereby loses my limited firepower and distraction value, i have failed my team... be they solo pugs or dropship pugs.

I agree with this. People on average don't like an overbearing commander, and if you don't phrase your instructions nicely, you're more likely to get resistance than otherwise. I've found the best techniques to generally involve ambush - 7 Mechs concentrated in one choke point, with one scout/commander watching every other route.

For Forest colony + snow, the place to hold is D6 for more or less both sides. Light Mechs should be ready to return to base to defend it against enemy Lights; Assaults and Heavies will hold their position no matter what and bring down the enemy vanguard force, and Mediums hunt enemy Lights in the vanguard.

For Desert, the place to hold is the caldera edge, just before entering. It's an excellent sniping/LRM/cover spot. The scout then looks both east and west to isolate enemy location, reports it, and the whole group masses at the corner and concentrate fire at targets as they pass by one by one, while the commander routes around and assassinates their LRM boats from the back.

For River, the two teams have completely separate approach routes. The idea in both cases is to maintain your cover while forcing the enemy to engage in a location without cover - this results in a clockwise route for both sides. The commander will be in the centre locations near cover to spot the enemy route. If the chosen enemy route is advantageous, this goes very well. If both teams go clockwise, then the entire friendly team will rush to and cap the enemy base, while the commander + one other light mech will return to base to perform a suicidal defense to buy time to ensure the cap is a success. This map is the #1 death trap for commanders.

For Frozen colony, the best route for both sides is for the vanguard to go through the tunnel, and the light mechs to approach via the outside. Light mechs will take down any enemy lights attempting for a stealth cap, and watch for the enemy vanguard. If the two vanguards meet in the tunnel it's more or less going to be a fair fight. If one moves outside and one goes inside, the one inside can move outwards at the midpoint of the tunnel to flank the enemy vanguard while the lights attempt to cap - if they disengage and defend the base, your vanguard will smash them as they charge. If they don't, then even though the battle has a 50% chance of being won, the lights will very likely successfully cap and win the war.

Essentially, if you get Desert or Forest, you're pretty much set if your enemy doesn't have a tactic. If you get River, you probably win, but sometimes at the cost of your life. If you get Frozen, tactics don't give that much of an advantage in comparison (because of the chance of vanguard vs vanguard in the tunnels), but it's still better to have one than none.

Adaptation of strategies to your team's loadout is paramount. If your vanguard consists of LRM boats you won't be sending them through the tunnel in Frozen. If your team consists of snipers it may be better to hold further inland positions in Forest, and on hills instead of at the thoroughfares.

The worst case scenario is when your instructions are ignored, and everyone does their own thing. It's still ok if they ignore you and move together, but when they start to separate, then the battle is pretty much lost if the other team is organised. It's more than a little discouraging when your initial plan in team chat is met with an immediate 'F*** you', which happens every now and then, but what you can get out of the many times that people are willing to cooperate is worth trying.