34 replies to this topic

[Polarice]

Gunslinger!!


Otherwise, I'd like to see the scout type lights being able to fit it but HK types like the jenners not so much.

[Kurayami]

i don't think they will limit it too strictly, more like "every mech but not every variant". severally limiting it would be nice though - raven sure can use some love.

[Roadbuster]

Obadiah333, on 21 November 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

I hope they don't limit it to only certain chassis. I have multiple chassis 3 tons shy of max just waiting for ECM. AMS is for every mech, why not ECM? I think they should have slots for it, like AMS does, where some mechs have more than 1 slot so they can run BAP and ECM, while most mechs can only choose 1 or the other. I will be sorely dissapointed if I can't run ECM on the mechs that I want to. But I suppose I should get used to being dissappointed.

I like that idea. Something like a utility hardpoint in the cockpit where you can put advanced sensors or counter measures.

[Terror Teddy]

Obadiah333, on 21 November 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

I will be sorely dissapointed if I can't run ECM on the mechs that I want to. But I suppose I should get used to being dissappointed.

It would be better if it is limited to certain chassis to place mechs into certain roles. Having EVERYONE running ECM would be bad imho.

It would also make actual scout mech's just another mech instead of something special.

It would be for the very same reason we have different chassis with different slots instead of just weight classes and 1 chassis per weight class.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 22 November 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[Voidsinger]

Terror Teddy, on 22 November 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

It would be better if it is limited to certain chassis to place mechs into certain roles. Having EVERYONE running ECM would be bad imho.

It would also make actual scout mech's just another mech instead of something special.

It would be for the very same reason we have different chassis with different slots instead of just weight classes and 1 chassis per weight class.

I hate to break it to you, but scout mechs are not something special.

I used to run Commandos. I retired (for now) having reached Master (extra Module slot) in the last today.

They are completely lacking in survivability, speed only goes so far. The Scout's role can right now be covered by any mech. Fast mechs work better, simply because of the territory they cover. When combat hits, you need to be in a heavier unit, especially in MWO, because of the way spotting works. A mech alone, generally isn't until most of the way through the game.

As for the rest:

- Beagle Active Probe - On any mech, only increases sensor range, and decreases detection time (2 modules do this, although more expensive and take module slots).

- C3 - Much of the data interchange is built into all mechs. Any mech can act as a spotter, any LRM boat can fire from any spot.

- TAG - Any mech can carry it, and many LRM boats self-TAG in LoS. Relies on team working together closely, and is now used for LRMs, not artillery.

- NARC - Doesn't work with SRMs. Therefore, the NARC firing unit likely will not gain any advantage from it.

- Guardian ECM - This isn't actually a scout piece of equipment. Remember, range is hideously limited. It's more a piece of equipment for force flankers and escorts, like Centurions were originally meant to be. Sure it has some uses for a scout, but BAP is the real scout equipment. By 3085, Guardian ECM had replaced AMS in many mechs (which says a great deal about AMS effectiveness).

The Raven Fanboys want ECM as a Raven exclusive, simply because they themselves admit the mech doesn't have much else going for it. PGI needs to limit it, more due to other factors in the game being already badly unbalanced, which ECM would amplify. A bit of a copout.

[Terror Teddy]

Voidsinger, on 22 November 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

I hate to break it to you, but scout mechs are not something special.

No, it is not, it matters mainly how they are configured.

But game balance wide it would be BAD if EVERYONE could use the same gear regardless of chassis - it kinda removes the very point of multiple chassis, even with modules.

With your examples above though the ECM roles can still be limited.

-Require the C3 network be applied in spotter and shooter to limit the simplicity of indirect fire
-Certain chassis have less or more module slots and will thus be more efficient with module combinations
-Limit indirect targeting to friendly mechs within your sensor range
--This way a beagle active probe becomes even more important and indirect fire is still useful but you cannot just sit back at the base on larger maps.

[Voidsinger]

Terror Teddy, on 22 November 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

No, it is not, it matters mainly how they are configured.

But game balance wide it would be BAD if EVERYONE could use the same gear regardless of chassis - it kinda removes the very point of multiple chassis, even with modules.

With your examples above though the ECM roles can still be limited.

-Require the C3 network be applied in spotter and shooter to limit the simplicity of indirect fire
-Certain chassis have less or more module slots and will thus be more efficient with module combinations
-Limit indirect targeting to friendly mechs within your sensor range
--This way a beagle active probe becomes even more important and indirect fire is still useful but you cannot just sit back at the base on larger maps.

Yes, this would definitely make the scout role unique, and return the role of ambush to the scout mech's resume.

Never happen though. The LRM people would whine too much if limited to LoS and blind fire, or having to add another piece of equipment not out yet.

Battletech did allow any mech to use any piece of equipment. Yes, you are right, configuration did matter more there.

The problem comes down to how much you really want to matchmake. PGI is resisting going with Battle Values for mechs. A single score that would greatly simplify matters. Instead, any light is just a light, any assault, just an assault. The disparities are often complained about here, and with good reason. BVs do tend to add a great deal of balance.

Style was the only reason to ever consider more than one chassis within a weight class, and physical movement (because engines were not easily swapped).

In MWO, the limitations are more Hardpoints (where equipment falls under no category), and Jumpjets. Original speed is also a limiter.

[Terror Teddy]

Voidsinger, on 22 November 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

Never happen though. The LRM people would whine too much if limited to LoS and blind fire, or having to add another piece of equipment not out yet.

Which is too bad - it is to much easy mode since everyone is a scout mech for LRM by simply being on the field.

World of Tanks did it well with Radio Distance for communicating enemy movement and if they were too far away, then they couldn't communicate what they saw.

[FR33JACK]

...don't forget about clan ECM's. When those are come up, they will take half the space - 1 slot...and Jenners can have them in their builds

[Terror Teddy]

FR33JACK, on 22 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

...don't forget about clan ECM's. When those are come up, they will take half the space - 1 slot...and Jenners can have them in their builds

Oh dear.

Still, the best mechs are not actually Clan mechs - but if we actually allow IS mechs to have the following:
-Clan Endo Steel
-Clan Engines
-Clan Ferro Fibrous

So, why shouldn't they have them? Well, they are not upgrades like the IS versions, they are manufactured straight into the hull and cannot be removed. This tells us that the weight and space saving the clans have is because they MUST have it in their hulls to function from the start, and you cannot just swap it out willy-nilly.

IS mechs actually becomes the more flexible ones if they can just exchange everything they fit for clan versions for less weight and space but still tweak:
-Engine values
-Armor values

Something the clan cannot.

[Kurayami]

OP make a poll please with all mech and variants =_= this would be better.

[GioAvanti]

Terror Teddy, on 22 November 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

Oh dear.

Still, the best mechs are not actually Clan mechs - but if we actually allow IS mechs to have the following:
-Clan Endo Steel
-Clan Engines
-Clan Ferro Fibrous

So, why shouldn't they have them? Well, they are not upgrades like the IS versions, they are manufactured straight into the hull and cannot be removed. This tells us that the weight and space saving the clans have is because they MUST have it in their hulls to function from the start, and you cannot just swap it out willy-nilly.

IS mechs actually becomes the more flexible ones if they can just exchange everything they fit for clan versions for less weight and space but still tweak:
-Engine values
-Armor values

Something the clan cannot.

Where does it say that in canon? As a battletech fan.... that's never been stated. Sounds like something you made up to win an argument.


Oh dear is right.

[Terror Teddy]

GioAvanti, on 22 November 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

Where does it say that in canon? As a battletech fan.... that's never been stated. Sounds like something you made up to win an argument.


Oh dear is right.

As i wrote in another thread.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

Se under "limitations"

Quote

OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.

Quote

While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms it from a OmniMech into a standard BattleMech

Quote

If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 22 November 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

hope they don't limit it to only certain chassis. I have multiple chassis 3 tons shy of max just waiting for ECM. AMS is for every mech, why not ECM?

Because AMS has limited ammo. ECM does not.

ECM should be limited to only certain chassis, because if every mech can use ECM, then theres no reason not to use ECM.

[Terror Teddy]

Just to give another view of ECM - look at the versions for tournament rules and descriptions to how the ECM worked according to SARNA:

• 
  
  

  Quote

  • In Tournament-level gameplay, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.
    
  • In Tactical Operations, additional uses for an ECM suite are shown as optional rules, including defeating other ECM and generating ghost targets.
    

And other computer games:

Quote

• In MechWarrior IV: Mercenaries, the ECM is a selectable component for certain 'Mechs. It increases missile lock time for enemies and reduces the range at which the 'Mech can be detected.
  
• In MechCommander 2, the ECM is also a component for certain 'Mechs. It makes the 'Mech in question undetectable by sensors. It appears to have no effect on missiles, due to the way in which the game handles weapons fire.
  
• MechForce Germany created rules for the tonnage, crits and bare bones description of ECM equipment in the Raven TRO that was published in House Liao (The Capellan Confederation). Fantasy Productions GmbH then published these rules in Arena-Planet Solaris VII (the expanded German edition of the Solaris VII boxed set) as "ECM 3025".

Can you see the outcry if EVERYONE had a system that created ghost targets, increased locking time or undetectable by sensors? Or for that matter, becomes worthless as all ECM simply cancel each other out so you could simply skip them.