55 replies to this topic

[Mr GreenSuit]

AC-2's have sustained damage, AC-20 has burst damage. There is value in both burst and sustained damage that idiots do not see. AC-20 Has more burst damage than Gauss. Three Gauss shots strike their target and the target survives, Three AC-20 shots strike their target and their target explodes into chunky bits.

Please note that gauss is apparently getting a change ( or a bug fix ) where it will now explode and do damage apon crit. So if you don't want your gun exploding n stuff... Ac-20, 10, 5, 2.

[Daekar]

This is not Call of Duty. It is important that it take a considerable amount of time to kill things. Most weapons are balanced fine. Please learn to use them in the ways they are intended rather than expecting all weapons to be tailored to your personal playstyle.

[Vosgedzam]

Mr GreenSuit, on 22 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

AC-2's have sustained damage, AC-20 has burst damage. There is value in both burst and sustained damage that idiots do not see. AC-20 Has more burst damage than Gauss. Three Gauss shots strike their target and the target survives, Three AC-20 shots strike their target and their target explodes into chunky bits.

Please note that gauss is apparently getting a change ( or a bug fix ) where it will now explode and do damage apon crit. So if you don't want your gun exploding n stuff... Ac-20, 10, 5, 2.

Don't bother. The OP cannot understand the differences of the risks and rewards for these weapons.

[hashinshin]

Mr GreenSuit, on 22 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

AC-2's have sustained damage, AC-20 has burst damage. There is value in both burst and sustained damage that idiots do not see. AC-20 Has more burst damage than Gauss. Three Gauss shots strike their target and the target survives, Three AC-20 shots strike their target and their target explodes into chunky bits.

Please note that gauss is apparently getting a change ( or a bug fix ) where it will now explode and do damage apon crit. So if you don't want your gun exploding n stuff... Ac-20, 10, 5, 2.

AC-2 also requires continuous aim at all times where as AC-20 requires one aim.

Also, there are more guns on your mech than a single AC20 or Gauss. I don't understand why you compare 3 gauss shots to 3 AC20 shots when I can be shooting all my mediums while you struggle to maintain heat.

Daekar, on 22 November 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

This is not Call of Duty. It is important that it take a considerable amount of time to kill things. Most weapons are balanced fine. Please learn to use them in the ways they are intended rather than expecting all weapons to be tailored to your personal playstyle.

who even mentioned playstyle? I have like 10 different mechs. I'm not exactly short on playstyles here.

[Mr GreenSuit]

hashinshin, on 22 November 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

AC-2 also requires continuous aim at all times where as AC-20 requires one aim.

Also, there are more guns on your mech than a single AC20 or Gauss. I don't understand why you compare 3 gauss shots to 3 AC20 shots when I can be shooting all my mediums while you struggle to maintain heat.

Oh I would not have trouble maintaining heat at all, you see you assume all the shots are from me and not team mates. Some things you see get better the more of them you have. I like that you keep adding 1 Med laser when you compair damage it's funny because I think you assume you can just add as many as you like and that an AC-20 player cannot.

Here's the facts puny brain. Gauss is a better sniper weapon than AC-20, fact. Gauss has better heat ratio than AC-20 also fact. Gauss performs better on the caustic map also fact. Now here's the tricky part that you don't understand... the AC-20 has it's own merits. The AC-20 has higher burst damage, fact (and any amount of lasers you could add the AC pilot could also). The AC-20 has less weight, fact. The AC-20 performs better on the Arctic map, fact. Also AC-20 does not explode in your face.

The AC-20 can kill things with less shots and in less time than the gauss so If you want a weapon that has higher burst and more sustained damage (until overheat) which won't explode in your face. take AC-20. If you want the best heat ratio weapon in the game take gauss. If you want the highest DPS take UAC/5 or AC-2. Seems to me like you have a lot of options!

[Daekar]

You suggested that all the weapons suck. This implies that you feel they should all kill faster, which would alter the character of the game and cater to those who prefer twitch style play. Thus, overall dps increase changes playstyle.

[Adeptus Odren]

Corbon Zackery, on 22 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

I also dont like that a 30mm AC 2 shakes my screen and has a huge blast its a 30mm cannon not a 150mm tank gun It should work like a MG only slower rate of fire. Thanks

What if the AC2 here is a 30mm GAU-8? I bet even that would shake an Atlas.

[Applecrow]

And here I thought it was all about the person firing the weapon knowing what it does and how it does it.

Edited by Applecrow, 22 November 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[Cmdr Harabec]

Daekar, on 22 November 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

You suggested that all the weapons suck. This implies that you feel they should all kill faster, which would alter the character of the game and cater to those who prefer twitch style play. Thus, overall dps increase changes playstyle.

That entirely depends how much faster he wants them to kill, doesn't it?

I don't know why I'm even posting here. OP, people don't listen to reason even if you show the math backing it up.You're wasting your own time - plenty of people have posted better, more indepth looks at why so many weapons are subpar to such a scant few and people always argue over it. Lot of people can't ever look past "Well I can kill an enemy with it so you just need to learn to use it" style arguments which are utterly worthless. Just don't waste your time.

[John Norad]

Vagabond Nomad, on 22 November 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Completely agree. PGI needs to get table top purists out of their balancing team, and get people in there that are less interested in implementing purified canon, and more interested in making a "believable" weapons that have a practical purpose. Having a weapon that jams this frequently, in this high-tech universe is beyond re-tarded.

That's some uninformed bias.
In the TT the chance to jam was 1/36. That's roughly 2.8%. Get your 'facts' straight.

I would call myself a TT purist, but I could think of a dozen things to do better or different than the current implementation.
Blaming the TT has become some form of brainless meme or killer argument.

[Quincy80]

John do you know the chance to jam in MWO. I'll give you a hit it's a lot higher than 2.8%.

As I actually have looked over the numbers and the OP is right. To the guy with the 'change the character of the game' arguement. You are a tool. The character of the game is no different if you use the current optimal weapons than if the game was properly balanced.

Gauss is in fact better than an AC20. Anyone who argues that AC20 + med lasers beats Gauss and same number of Medlasers does not understand heat. Or Ammo.

Ex: Atlas
Gauss + 4 Medlas = 8.75 DPS +4.25 Heat per second
AC20 = 4 Medlas = 10 DPS + 5.5 Heat per second

Now ammo and heat sinks required to sustain firing.
Gauss Build - 30 rounds ammo -> 3 tons ammo - 8 double heatsinks at current values to dissipate half the earned heat
AC20 Build - 35 rounds ammo -> 5 tons ammo - 13 double heatsinks at current values.

Combined tonnage of load out
Gauss build - 30 tons
AC20 - 36 tons

That doesn't even include that Gauss build will fire longer before reaching overheat, thus earning back the total damage difference. Or that it fires at longer range. Or that you could fire the Gauss while cooling down. Or that you have more crit slots(20) left to add heat sinks or extra weapons (like streaks).

Anyway, my supper is now done cooking and I can spend my time doing something more useful than slapping you in the face with a clue by four.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

John Norad, on 22 November 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

That's some uninformed bias.
In the TT the chance to jam was 1/36. That's roughly 2.8%. Get your 'facts' straight.

yes and in TT u cant unjam UAC....which make them useless in MWO

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 22 November 2012 - 07:37 PM.

[Freeride Forever]

Ugh, as much as I want to $h|t all over this thread like I've been doing to others like it for weeks, the way hashinshin wrote it really puts the scenario of this "game" in perspective. Are SRM's tolerable? Really? Anyway, I've never used a Streakboat except when I was unlocking a C1. That was during the nerf. It was still a destroyer. It was easy, like inbred monkey fucktard easy, to get 4 kills in most matches, half asleep. I can't imagine what it was like before the nerf, or after. I find it puzzling that they would increase the accuracy back to 100% & also increase the damage. I'm not sure what they do for DMG now but why shouldn't a Streak missle do a bit less than a highly inaccurate, highly delayed SRM?

I knew Streakboats would be back after the latest buff & it seems that's been the case. It never takes people long to figure out what's superior when things are so out of balance. If failing to adhere to some kind of doctrine or rulebook is seen as a deadly sin to PGI then I think the ugly truth will be learned the hard way that adhering to those rules will help lead to the death of this (MWO). Every second spent on something put into the game that never gets used, is a second wasted. From what I've seen over the last 5 months, I don't think PGI can afford to waste too many.

As much as I agree with the picture the OP has painted, I DO NOT WANT to see PGI neglect the breaking bugs & lack of content to deal with whatever so called balance issues they, I or anyone else thinks are currently present in the game.

Unless PGI has some kind of plans for the future that we're not aware of yet, doing things like MG's & flamers the way they currently are is time completely wasted. When they say they're "taking a look" at a damage increase for MG's, the only thing I can come up with is that they're clueless, or we're clueless about something they have planned in the future for them. Did they not recently say they're "looking at" or "considering"? Sooooooo, still not sure that MG's are only ever used by new players who don't know any better or those who are just so bored that they use MG's for brief $h|ts & gigs? Hello PGI, where are you? An MWO MG has to be the dumbest thing to ever occur in all of video gaming.

Oh wait! Why do some mechs come with 5 JJs even though there's no difference over using 1? I tried 20 on my Jenner, burned for just as long as 1.

So yeah, I don't wanna see resources diverted from the bugs that existed prior to OB that don't seem to be getting worked on anyway, in favor of more fu<king around with weapon balancing but I still reluctantly have to agree with the OP. There's something to be said for play style & competence but how many reasons are there to get good with an AC/5 when being half as good with a gauss yields better results? I think boredom is setting in from nothing to really do (1 mode, 4 maps) & frustration is setting in from all the insane bugs which seem to grow in number after every patch. I think weapon balancing is an issue in some places but I don't think it ruins player experience like lack of content & disastrous bugs. I think there are so many missing things that will/would change gameplay that balance should honestly be totally ignored. What happens when water affects speed? If we ever get the level of destruction in the environment that this game should already have, what will that mean for the way weapons currently work? Would supposedly underpowered LRMs potentially bring down buildings on targets hiding behind them? Could flamers light forests on fire à la Far Cry 2 & trap a slow enemy in the forest until it burns out? Could an MG...... oops, WTF good could an MG possibly be? Like I said, maybe they have some dope $h|t in the works for us that we just don't know about, but my hopes are dwindling.

I did notice the mech shadows are working right in River City now. Give a little praise for that.

Edited by Freeride Forever, 22 November 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Daekar]

I know that he wanted them to kill considerably faster because he used the term "suck.". Generally, that term is not used for situations in which a small adjustment would rectify the situation... that implies significant change and significantly decreased TTK. Which would be bad. That's not to say I'm against weapons balancing... but generally speaking, we need to insure that dps and burst dps stay where they are as weapons change, or things will get twitchy without armor boosts.

[Dagnome]

Oh COMEON! AC2's arnt THAT bad!!!

;p

[Asmosis]

Khobai, on 22 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Gauss+AC2 is better though

2x ac5 is 16 tonnes per arm, guass+ac2 is 23 tonnes per arm. You might have the weapons but good luck with your ammo after the 3rd minute of the match.

[Darth JarJar]

SkyCake, on 22 November 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

until ACs are viable, this game will suck as a whole... yesterday for the first time we had a viable AC, today, through a vicious and cowardly hotfix, we have been set back months of development...

Moar QQ because the phag-du-jour got nerfed.....

[Glaive-]

You all need to read this: http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

[hashinshin]

armyunit, on 22 November 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

You all need to read this: http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

I remember where I first was when I read they were doing weapon balancing. It was about the first time I bought my founders and was checking the forums.

"we're doing stuff we promise" is a far shot from "we did stuff."

Edited by hashinshin, 22 November 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Your thread is too late. AC 20 got nicely buffed, twice. Rest still got a very nice ammo boost. The Ultra now auto-unjams. ACs are actually good now. I have trouble picking one out. Since the scatter change I like the LBX for close encounters but when I want distance, the 5, Ultra, and 10, are all now good choices too.

I like all of them except the 2 but that's mainly an issue of range. You need to be in the 1-2k meter area for the AC 2 to be worth anything, and you'll never be so far away while still able to hit a target... assuming you can see them at all. The maps are tiny, and they offer extreme amounts of cover. Enemies can easily keep you blocked until they reach you, after which they will start shooting you with much better guns that kill you much faster. Even at Caustic if you camp the base and shoot enemies out in the open you won't need the range this gun features. It sacrifices damage for excess range. If the AC 2 did get a damage boost, then people would just use 2-3 up front and spam them; which isn't their intended purpose. The issue is that it's a sniper's gun for what is largely not a sniper's game. At the ranges currently provided by the maps as a whole and from most fights I've seen, you rarely need a gun past 1,000-1,300 meters unless its missiles that can fly over terrain. ERPPC may have a shorter range... but it hits significantly harder and you don't need that extra range.(It doesn't benefit you anything) There's also travel time contraints with any projectile at max ranges. You'd have to be an AC 2 grand champion to hit anything with this thing at 1500-2k. The upside is that you get lots of ammo... so pewpewpew if that suits you.