63 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

ECM. Effectively destroys the information warfare concept. At least this implementation of it does.


I know PGI was going for a TT version of ECM, but I think I can safely say, thats its not going to work here. There is a reason why previous mechwarrior games never did it like the tabletop....

Because it doesnt work. You did right by only putting it on a limited number of chassis. However, now because of how powerful it is, every premade match is... group of ECM Atlas DDC, mixed with ECM ravens and cicadas, and the only way to compete with that... is do the same thing.

In premades it also completely throws tactics out the window and now match is an in your face brawl or baserush under the stealth of ECM with occasional sniping... Missles and streaks have become nearly non existent because ECM makes them totally useless.(except streaks on a mech using ECCM) So basically, a team of 8 ecm mechs, counters a team of 8 ecm mechs, so it makes having ecm required on the whole team to make ecm pointless. They can can do better....

I suggest PGI look at the ECM implementations of previous mechwarrior titles to see how they solved the imbalance and made it work.

Radar... I like how PGI made radar... with the current implementation of radar you can still be stealthy using cover or angles of approach, it took skill to do this. But now with ECM, it takes no skill whatsoever, and not only that, but your whole team can sneak around with you.

Edited by Teralitha, 08 March 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Poppaukko]

The ECM range stretches a bit too far for these maps, maybe something from 120-150 meter range would be more appropriate. Other than that I think it's great. Annoying, but great. I don't have an ECM capable mech yet but might buy one soon.

[Apoc1138]

I think the through ECM detection range should be increased from 200m to 300m and/or BAP and all other bonuses should apply to detecting mechs behind ECM... on the other hand, TAG just became a whole lot more useful and not just to LRM boats

180m for the no comms bit of ECM I think is fine

[Attalward]

Normally I wouldnt agree with you. But yes you are right this time, ECM is too powerfull and the 180 radius is ridiculous can hide the whoel team without any space problems.

[Teralitha]

Attalward, on 05 December 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

Normally I wouldnt agree with you. But yes you are right this time, ECM is too powerfull and the 180 radius is ridiculous can hide the whoel team without any space problems.

Why would you normally disagree with me? Dont you know Im always right? (just ask my wife)

Edited by Teralitha, 05 December 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[wanderer]

Teralitha, on 05 December 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

ECM. Effectively destroys the information warfare concept. At least this implementation of it does.

I know PGI was going for a TT version of ECM, but I think I can safely say, thats its not going to work here. There is a reason why previous mechwarrior games never did it like the tabletop....

PGI wasn't going for a TT version of ECM, this is nothing like it.

ECM in TT negates NARC, Artemis, and C3 systems along with many advanced bits of electronics.

It doesn't render 'Mechs invisible to sensors, nor does it have any effect on standard LRMs. The "camo" ECM provides right now isn't even remotely canon. At the moment, I'd say ECM is on the "overkill" side of things.

[Jock Blaine]

Teralitha, on 05 December 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

Radar... I like how PGI made radar... with the current implementation of radar you can still be stealthy using cover or angles of approach, it took skill to do this. But now with ECM, it takes no skill whatsoever, and not only that, but your whole team can sneak around with you. If this is how its gonna be, then radar needs to be changed to a full 360, detection, disregardling LOS to help balance ECM.

I like where you are going.

Actually... Wouldn't it be a good implementation to have 360 radar, but with ECM you can only target everything in visual range like current radar. That actually matches the way I would expect electronic counter measures to work.
Extra modifications
- Target retention (the 3 or so seconds a mech out of visual range remains targeted) gets dropped when covered by ECM
- You can reduce the current forward radar cone to actual be just the field of vision (narrower)
- Dropping lock after something massive is in between can still be used
- Trees etc increase visual detection time. An ECM using mech in the trees is almost invisible.

This way, ECM would make scouting very interesting, while at the same time the scout is vulnerable if it shows itself.


Next to that, you can do something with lock-breaking/re-locking of missiles. Even a very short lock-break on streaks will in most cases (not all) make them miss their target since they would get of course so fast that re-acquiring lock is not going to help them. The opposite holds true for LRM's. So, ECM would counter many streaks and few LRM's. These LRM's in turn will depend more on scouts. LRM's can also still go to where they were originally going. So, if your ECM breaks their lock, you also have to move at least a bit. Balancing the whole system can be done by shicting the break/re-acquire times or chances.

I think that ECM has lots of potential for increasing the possibilities within the game, but current implementation might be to straightforward. Just an opinion though, an I will need many more hours of gameplay to be certain. But what do people think of the above?

[Redshift2k5]

I'd like to see EM sproviding less stealth if you have line of sight on the enemy, moving the range from 200m to 400m or 500m.

Within the 180m ECM is working very well, but right now you have a 20m band (inside 200m, outside 180m) which is impossibly thin range buffer to maintain versus a moving target.

[PurpleNinja]

And that's how ECM should work anyway.

[Sovolis]

If PGI simply removed the sensor range reduction feature and the increased missile lock time it would actually fit what we see in canon TT and would also be much closer to being balanced. ECM in canon was never meant to be an anti-missile shield; if missiles aren't working as intended fix them don't add in a broken feature. That is just poor game design.

[Shiney]

+1

It's stupidly OP, has only 'other' ECM as counters and it's only when everyone else in the team has ECM that you can even get to a level playing field for play versus teams who want to get an edge. It's not an edge, it's a cliff that has all notions of other styles of gameplay falling over to their deaths. Seriously what ARE you thinking?

[KuruptU4Fun]

Since I know I'm going to get flamed for disagreeing with the OP about it anyways, but something needs to be said.

Learn some simple tactics, if there are a group of mechs then you can see which one is carrying ECM by the indicator on their head. Kill them first. If you can't see the ECM indicator then remember which variants carry ECM and take them down. The ECM is located in a specific part of the mech. Destroy it by concentrating fire on that area, you destroy ECM. When you are in short range and can't get a lock for SSRM's, tell your ECM capable mech to hit the "J" button and counter the ECM of the enemy. You can lock on then.

If you can't type the target in because you're in the middle of a battle, then maybe it's time you look for a group of friends on TS or C3 to play with. Communication is key and will turn the tide of battle.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 05 December 2012 - 05:24 AM.

[wanderer]

Attalward, on 05 December 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

Normally I wouldnt agree with you. But yes you are right this time, ECM is too powerfull and the 180 radius is ridiculous can hide the whoel team without any space problems.

Actually, that's OK by me. It's the fact that ECM cripples so much that hurts.

Go ahead, drop my range down to 630m with ECM up, just like I didn't have spotters. Perfectly fair, ECM hoses 'Mech to 'Mech networking, and MWO's is in many ways like a simpler C3, which ECM takes down. Neutralize TAG up close, Artemis completely, NARC as well. But rendering targets impossible to hit with my own sensors isn't even reasonable. A 1.5 ton system should not be utterly cancelling out my launchers.

And don't say "TAG" or "dumb-fire your LRMs". The latter shouldn't be required as some kind of magical ECM blaster and dumb-firing a weapon that moves so slowly it misses anything short of stationary is....dumb. The LRM's relatively "stupid" standard guidance system was designed specifically to be so robust that ECM -didn't- hose it.

[Johnathan McKenna]

I have to disagree Teralitha. I play a scout mech and this is the first time I actually feel like I am actually doing my role. I actually have to go out and find my enemies for my team instead of just having everone on my team just as capable of finding them as my raven. I also have seen more organized play from enemy teams in one day than I have since early closed beta and I think ECM has a large part to do with it. As far as I'm concerned ECM should be left alone, but I could see them making TAG usable if you are within someones ECM bubble. They wanted TAG to be an effective counter everyone could use but for now it's practically useless since the lights will be on you in seconds.

[Chrithu]

In my view the biggest problem is that the only counter to ECM is another ECM when it should have been the BAP.

I think ECM could stay as is if the BAP is reworked as follows:

BAP works as a 360° mid range (400 to 600m) radar detecting AND sharing any powered up mech in that radius without the need for line of sight.

ECM disturbs the BAP but if you have Line of Sight to a target under ECM cover everything works as it used to before if you have BAP equipped. This also means if a BAP equipped scout shares a ECM covered target others can lock on missiles to that shared target.

This way scouts can do their job again as they used to.

The way the system currently works is just enforcing too much brawling in my view.

[Icebound]

Poppaukko, on 05 December 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

The ECM range stretches a bit too far for these maps, maybe something from 120-150 meter range would be more appropriate. Other than that I think it's great. Annoying, but great. I don't have an ECM capable mech yet but might buy one soon.

I think you might be onto something, maybe it would be a little more balanced with a shorter range.

[KuruptU4Fun]

BAP is simply an informational gathering tool that improves your sensors. It is not designed to assist with direct targeting.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Teralitha, on 05 December 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

Why would you normally disagree with me? Dont you know Im always right? (just ask my wife)

Just did it. She says that SHE is always right, not you!

[Kdogg788]

KuruptU4Fun, on 05 December 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

Since I know I'm going to get flamed for disagreeing with the OP about it anyways, but something needs to be said.

Learn some simple tactics, if there are a group of mechs then you can see which one is carrying ECM by the indicator on their head. Kill them first. If you can't see the ECM indicator then remember which variants carry ECM and take them down. The ECM is located in a specific part of the mech. Destroy it by concentrating fire on that area, you destroy ECM. When you are in short range and can't get a lock for SSRM's, tell your ECM capable mech to hit the "J" button and counter the ECM of the enemy. You can lock on then.

If you can't type the target in because you're in the middle of a battle, then maybe it's time you look for a group of friends on TS or C3 to play with. Communication is key and will turn the tide of battle.

The only way to destroy ECM is to kill the ECM carrying mech as most of them carry in the head or center torso. Killing the ECM mech sounds like a good idea, but doesn't work well if the other team has got 5 to 8 of them.

-k

[KuruptU4Fun]

Kdogg788, on 05 December 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

The only way to destroy ECM is to kill the ECM carrying mech as most of them carry in the head or center torso. Killing the ECM mech sounds like a good idea, but doesn't work well if the other team has got 5 to 8 of them.

-k

The opposing team almost always has 8 mechs you are trying to kill anyways. How does that change the situation?

Which mechs have more than 1 slot available to put ECM(into their heads I mean)??

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 05 December 2012 - 06:20 AM.