89 replies to this topic

[Ronin Starwalker]

According to my calculations the GR should have a minimum range of 60m.

Why is this not implemented, yet the PPC's minimum range is?

Can anyone elaborate on the thought process behind this?

[Smokin Dragon]

i don't understand why a gauss rifle would have a minimum range of 60m.

It's a cannon that accelerates a slug (usually metal) to very very fast speeds and spits it out of the barrel towards the target.

please stand 20m directly in front of one and test fire it, then come back and tell me why the minimum range didn't work like you thought.

Kindest Regards,

Smokin' Dragon

[Clay Pigeon]

Because Kinetic Energy Penetrators don't magically start working only 60m away. They work at point blank range. There's a fluffy reason (that is logical) to make PPCs do reduced damage. As far as I know, there isn't one for the GR.

[Obadiah333]

Cause OP weapon is OP.

[TostitoBandito]

They said at some point that it didn't make sense in the real-world since the gauss projectile is non-explosive and would be going full speed as soon as it exited the barrel. In short, there is no reason it should do no damage at point blank range. I believe the "minimum range" in TT was due to accuracy issues more than anything else, for the gauss at least.

However, I agree with you. For the sake of balance it wouldn't hurt to give it a 60 or 90 meter min range. That would at least get it off of the non-sniper mechs.

[Kdogg788]

He is referring to the minimum range of these weapons on Sarna and on tabletop. It's meant to balance the power of the weapon by limiting them at close range.

-k

[Broceratops]

if it had a min range on TT then it definitely should have one in MWO. right now it's a uber weapon at every range and most people prefer it as the close-up weapon of choice as well ... which just seems wrong.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Ronin Starwalker, on 24 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

According to my calculations the GR should have a minimum range of 60m.

Why is this not implemented, yet the PPC's minimum range is?

Can anyone elaborate on the thought process behind this?

Because people are applying logic to Battletech as follows:

Smokin Dragon, on 24 November 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

i don't understand why a gauss rifle would have a minimum range of 60m.

It's a cannon that accelerates a slug (usually metal) to very very fast speeds and spits it out of the barrel towards the target.

please stand 20m directly in front of one and test fire it, then come back and tell me why the minimum range didn't work like you thought.

Kindest Regards,

Smokin' Dragon

Clay Pigeon, on 24 November 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Because Kinetic Energy Penetrators don't magically start working only 60m away. They work at point blank range. There's a fluffy reason (that is logical) to make PPCs do reduced damage. As far as I know, there isn't one for the GR.

Guess what you two... it has a 60m minimum range "PURELY FOR BALANCE REASONS!"

It's as I've said before, I don't care if they explain it with Fairy Dust and Unicorn Farts... it NEEDS that minimum range restriction for balance reasons.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 25 November 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[One Medic Army]

In TT the AC/2 also has a minimum range, just saying.
Don't see anyone asking for that to come into play.
For that matter there's lots of weapons with a minimum range in TT.
In TT the minimum range just meant you had a big penalty to it at that range. It could be implemented by having a huge inaccuracy cone added to those weapons when fired at anything inside the minimum range, or just putting a limit to how short of a range they could converge to crosshairs properly at. (Note, this wouldn't work with LRMs obviously)

[Riffleman]

I have started this same thread at least 5 times.

We even had a thread where we tried to make reasons it would be unuseable at 60 or less. The best one I saw fluff wise was the capacitors need time to charge and cant be shifted after charged to fire, and anything moving into 60 meter range dosent allow time to charge capacitors and have the targeting system sync. Basically the targeter cannot compensate for the shorter charge time, and trys to start over or reboot the fireing process in an endless loop that dosent work. Just make it so gauss targeters are super sensative out of necessity.

Really just saying because should be enough if your makeing the stinking game. If gaussboats suddenly got beat up by jenners, they would disapear overnight.

[SteelPaladin]

The "realism" argument is silly.

The PPC fluff is nothing but implausible Star Trek-style technobabble. (You have an energy bolt that magically gets STRONGER once it passes a certain distance from the equipment generating and focusing it? Really? How does that boost of power jump those 90m from the equipment to the bolt w/o passing through the space between?)Yet people just handwave it because "sci-fi energy weapon."

Nobody has a cow that the chemically propelled AC/2 launches a round at almost twice the speed of a coilgun (the gauss rifle) for balance reasons, despite the implausibility. Suggest a minimum range for balance, though, and it's all "oh noes! My immersionz!"

The GR isn't supposed to be a brawling weapon. It's not supposed to have its cake and get to eat it too, yet it does in MWO. The AC/2 isn't supposed to be a brawling weapon either, but up until recently it was utter crap anyway so no one really cared.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 25 November 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[LordBraxton]

SteelPaladin, on 25 November 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

The "realism" argument is silly.

The PPC fluff is nothing but implausible Star Trek-style technobabble. (You have an energy bolt that magically gets STRONGER once it passes a certain distance from the equipment generating and focusing it? Really? How does that boost of power jump those 90m from the equipment to the bolt w/o passing through the space between?)Yet people just handwave it because "sci-fi energy weapon."

Nobody has a cow that the chemically propelled AC/2 launches a round at almost twice the speed of a coilgun (the gauss rifle) for balance reasons, despite the implausibility. Suggest a minimum range for balance, though, and it's all "oh noes! My immersionz!"

The GR isn't supposed to be a brawling weapon. It's not supposed to have its cake and get to eat it too, yet it does in MWO. The AC/2 isn't supposed to be a brawling weapon either, but up until recently it was utter crap anyway so no one really cared.

You aren't giving the soft science enough credit here. The PPC is supposed to be like a giant lightning cannon. The minimum range is supposed to involve feedback from the huge lightning burst arcing all over your own mech as well as theirs, causing damage to both you and the enemy. Just because Mechwarrior has never (been able to?) implemented it correctly...

[Rejarial Galatan]

Broceratops, on 24 November 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

if it had a min range on TT then it definitely should have one in MWO. right now it's a uber weapon at every range and most people prefer it as the close-up weapon of choice as well ... which just seems wrong.

going by this logic <readies the flame proof suit for what WILL follow this one> then, DOUBLE HEAT SINKS MUST BE DOUBLE SHS, we MUST have coolant truck access, we MUST have FULL ON 360 Radar AND the compressed vision bar that SHOWS 360. Oh wait, some of this does not work in a RT game. I am STILL PRO 360 Radar mind you.

Also, think about this one, IF you make a MINIMUM range for a Kinetic Energy Penetrating Weapon of say 60m then, why can a person take a GUN, which is also a KEPW and place the barrel right against his head, and well you know how that ends. Face it, the Gauss Slug is at MAX velocity the INSTANT it exits the barrel. Why? Because a set of magnetic coils accelerated it to MAX power/speed before it hit the end of the barrel, and as such, its MIN range is POINT BLANK.

[Onyx Rain]

ppc is no fun to play mostly because of min range....gauss would suck to play with min range....don't wanna ever see it happen. would rather they increase the refresh time.

[SteelPaladin]

LordBraxton, on 25 November 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

You aren't giving the soft science enough credit here. The PPC is supposed to be like a giant lightning cannon. The minimum range is supposed to involve feedback from the huge lightning burst arcing all over your own mech as well as theirs, causing damage to both you and the enemy. Just because Mechwarrior has never (been able to?) implemented it correctly...

The minimum range is actually supposed to involve an inhibitor that prevents what you describe at the cost of having a minimum range. Pilots were capable of turning that off and firing full power up close at the risk of self damage.

Only it doesn't make any more sense then the gauss argument. If the bolt is leaving the weapon at reduced power because of the inhibitor, there is no way for it to suddenly ramp up to full once it passes the 90m mark. It is divorced from its generating equipment by that point, so it can't just pull more juice from the ether.

[Goose]

How would you do any such ballistic minimum range?

Everyone carps, no one has any suggestions …

Edited by Goose, 25 November 2012 - 01:05 AM.

[SteelPaladin]

Goose, on 25 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

How would you do any such ballistic minimum range?

Everyone carps, no one has any suggestions …

The suggestion has always been to just do it the same way it's done for the PPC. Reduced damage within the minimum range.

That just always kicks off the "OMG realism!" argument because folks are so much more willing to accept handwavium for an energy weapon than a ballistic one.

[Rejarial Galatan]

because there is no way to apply a minimum range to a bullet, even one as large as a gauss slug. IF it had a warhead, then sure, a minimum range to arm said warhead, but, a point blank hit even in THAT case, still packs a wallop and would do kinetic damage, which makes me feel sad that LRMs when used in such a way have 0 kinetic damage, seems like they are foam that goes solid when the warhead arms....

[sokitumi]

Not a fan of the whole minimum range on any weapon. The whole concept seems artificial and limiting in a bad way. Gauss is strong... it's supposed to be. PPC's are horrible, they're not supposed to be, and it isn't just the min range that makes them bad. Why not just affect the accuracy of LRM's for distance? (arm themselves? seriously? sigh.. np for lasering through my back to hork a kill tho? more sigh...).

TT people maybe go paint a miniature instead of playing or developing a shooting game?

[Riffleman]

Guys its not the bullet that has the minimum range, that I agree is dumb. The arguement is that the time the magnetic capacitors need to charge and the targeting system can sync with them to fire just isnt enough if someone is within 60 meters.