89 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 25 November 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

Gauss is supposed to be the best. But its not supposed to be the best at EVERYTHING. Thats an important distinction.

It's not? Cause it is acting the same here as it did on TT. Cept there One Gauss round decapped you. Dead Your Mech is done. ONE Gauss round took the leg off a Jenner up to its Side torso armor! In TT Gauss had a 60 M Min range. That pretty much looks like it was teh best at everything to me? 25 years of playing the game with half the armor in the MMO and I never heard this much whining. 25 years (11 years on forums) and I have never heard so much QQ. Over Two decades v 3 months. I even playtested the rules for the TT game 7-8 years ago.

[AlexWildeagle]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 November 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Because people are applying logic to Battletech as follows:





Guess what you two... it has a 60m minimum range "PURELY FOR BALANCE REASONS!"

It's as I've said before, I don't care if they explain it with Fairy Dust and Unicorn Farts... it NEEDS that minimum range restriction for balance reasons.

There are other weapons that need balancing much more then the gaus rifle. Its not like the GR hits automatically and has a very short cool down. You actually have to hit with it which isn't that easy. I have had many explosions behind me and in front of me cause of the aimimg issues.
You want to do something about the easy button play, work on missiles the ultimate easy win. A GR is only deadly to you geniuses that stand still.

[Khobai]

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There are other weapons that need balancing much more then the gauss rifle. Its not like the GR hits automatically and has a very short cool down.

Yes and streak balance is being discussed in a different thread. This thread is about how to balance the gauss rifle. Both streaks and gauss are better than any other weapons in the same category (missile and ballistic respectively) and both need to be nerfed.

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It's not? Cause it is acting the same here as it did on TT.

Except that it doesnt act the same at all.

1) You cannot aim in tabletop. Hit locations are random.
2) Gauss has a minimum range in tabletop.

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Cept there One Gauss round decapped you

Yeah and it was only a 3% chance to hit someone in the head. In MWO you can point-blank decapitate people with aimed shots. That is NOTHING like tabletop.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

With this I agree with Khobai.

Except Gauss is fine now that it blows up again!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 November 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[Onyx Rain]

Khobai, on 25 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

You wont be getting hit by just a gauss though. The lower heat of the gauss means more weapons can be bundled together in the volley. For example, a gauss and medium laser fired together, generate less heat than the AC/20, and do the same 20 damage. The power of the gauss is the fact it barely generates any heat which allows more weapons to be fired simultaneously. Thats why the gauss needs a minimum range, so its not the best weapon for every situation.

If someone fires a gauss and 1 med laser that = 5 total heat.....and 20 total damage....what is that 1 more heat? then firing an ac20 takes...and the same damage...but it is unfocused laser damage that tends to drag across the mech making less effective in most cases.

Whatever weapon you fire with gauss to make up for that 5 dmg you loose compared to an ac20 costs enough heat and adds a type of damage that is less focused that any advantage in close quarters is arguably negligible.

Why not balance that with a longer refresh time, and/or more heat on the gauss instead of introducing a mechanic that ruins the gun for so many of us?

Edited by Onyx Rain, 25 November 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[SkyCake]

Ronin Starwalker, on 24 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

According to my calculations the GR should have a minimum range of 60m.

Why is this not implemented, yet the PPC's minimum range is?

Can anyone elaborate on the thought process behind this?

minimums need to be removed on PPC... gauss minimum is lame... there just needs to be other drawbacks to guass, or buffs to AC's or both... lrms minimum is too harsh too... in TT you could fire lrms at a stiff penalty but if you hit, you still did full damage... tehy need to arm half the missiles right out of the launchers...

[Onyx Rain]

SkyCake, on 25 November 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

minimums need to be removed on PPC... gauss minimum is lame... there just needs to be other drawbacks to guass, or buffs to AC's or both... lrms minimum is too harsh too... in TT you could fire lrms at a stiff penalty but if you hit, you still did full damage... tehy need to arm half the missiles right out of the launchers...

Exactly.

I could probably live with it if they at least gave the gun half damage but a min range they negates most or all of the damage on a 15 ton weapon that takes up 7 criticals, requires 2-3 tons of ammo to be worth carrying which also take up criticals renders the gun a huge waste of space/weight...oh and the gun blows up, and basically requires you to use CASE, which is more weight/criticals you loose.

= Min range is over nerf.

Edited by Onyx Rain, 25 November 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[Khobai]

Because what youre forgetting is that the Gauss can fire out to 660m while the AC/20 cant. So the Gauss is giving you equivalent damage per heat at brawling range in addition to being significantly better at sniping.

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Why not balance that with a longer refresh time, and/or more heat on the gauss instead of introducing a mechanic that ruins the gun for so many of us?

The gun needs to be ruined, because EVERYONE uses it. Adding a minimum range fundamentally changes the Gauss Rifle into a weapon which requires skillful positioning and intelligence to use. Which is exactly how a sniping weapon should be. Players who snipe will still use the Gauss, and those who no longer find it fun, will gravitate towards other weapons. The goal is to get players to use something besides Gauss for once.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[Onyx Rain]

Khobai, on 25 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Because what youre forgetting is that the Gauss can fire out to 660m while the AC/20 cant. So the Gauss is giving you equivalent damage at brawling range in addition to being significantly better at sniping.

Fair point but in many cases the upclose damage won't be as focused/effective, it can also explode requiring you to carry CASE, I can't put the gauss gun in my legs to protect it from getting exploded like I can ammo....and with the upcoming "fix" the gun will only have 3 health. These all balance out that good use over all range element.

They'll probably be popped so fast in most games I wonder if it will even be worth carrying one. That right there may be your best argument for min range....it might not actually be as bad as what they have proposed

Edited by Onyx Rain, 25 November 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

AlexWildeagle, on 25 November 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

There are other weapons that need balancing much more then the gaus rifle. Its not like the GR hits automatically and has a very short cool down. You actually have to hit with it which isn't that easy. I have had many explosions behind me and in front of me cause of the aimimg issues.
You want to do something about the easy button play, work on missiles the ultimate easy win. A GR is only deadly to you geniuses that stand still.

Agreed... however Gauss STILL has it's issues once SSRM's are fixed.

You REALLY want gausscats ruling the battlefield AGAIN?!

There's a lot of "Balance" issues in this game right now. SSRM and Gauss are really at the top of that list, and we've been arguing for a gauss minimum range since Closed Beta. Streaks need less damage, simple as that.

As for those arguing "AC2 has minimum range but no one's arguing for that" Um, as far as ranges go, I say take them from TT, and adjust to fit, if there's a minimum range, there's a minimum range for a reason, and easiest way to show that minimum range is decreased damage at short range, or inability to fire the weapon.

[Onyx Rain]

Khobai, on 25 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

The gun needs to be ruined, because EVERYONE uses it. Adding a minimum range fundamentally changes the Gauss Rifle into a weapon which requires skillful positioning and intelligence to use. Which is exactly how a sniping weapon should be. Players who snipe will still use the Gauss, and those who no longer find it fun, will gravitate towards other weapons.

A lot of people use medium lasers, large lasers, and srms etc..etc... too. And if they ever fix heat you may see the ERppc become as common if not more common then gauss currently are. Many mechs can't even mount a gauss, or mount it and be able to carry anything else. A lot of people do use gauss but ask them how fast they loose their gun in battle....it is a lot faster then it used to be. There is still the issue the gun explodes, can't hide it in the legs like you can exploding ammo...and forced to use CASE with it.

I see nothing wrong with a weapon being good and popular as long as it isn't game breaking...and whatever is going on with the gauss isn't breaking my game, nor does it seem to be breaking the game for the majority...just an annoyance for a vocal minority. This is the same situation as the LRM apocalypse we had for a few days yet to hear people tell it that is what its is...a gaussocalypse

Also any sniper worth his salt can turn that gun on you from 20 feet away, and smear you up against a tree. Long range doesn't necessarily mean useless or even less useless at shorter range.

[Onyx Rain]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 November 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Agreed... however Gauss STILL has it's issues once SSRM's are fixed.

You REALLY want gausscats ruling the battlefield AGAIN?!

There's a lot of "Balance" issues in this game right now. SSRM and Gauss are really at the top of that list, and we've been arguing for a gauss minimum range since Closed Beta. Streaks need less damage, simple as that.

As for those arguing "AC2 has minimum range but no one's arguing for that" Um, as far as ranges go, I say take them from TT, and adjust to fit, if there's a minimum range, there's a minimum range for a reason, and easiest way to show that minimum range is decreased damage at short range, or inability to fire the weapon.

I've got over 2000+ games and played since august and I don't remember this time where gauss cats ruled the battlefield.

In almost every poll people vote that the gauss may be the best gun, but the majority still vote to leave it alone....the gauss is OP crowd have lost at nearly every turn. I grant that the minority may be vocal enough that something may need to be done to placate them but min range breaks the gun for so many of its user it = massive over nerf. Increased heat and/or refresh time solves any problem and doesn't ruin the gun for a large chunk of its users.

Really looks like gauss haters just wanna get rid of the one gun that scares them... I fight against gauss in an XL aws-9m....with no gauss of its own...arguably one of the most vulnerable mechs (with that XL)...and do quite well....believe me I'd be right here with you all if I was getting bent over match after match by gauss users....but I'm not. If you are...you're doing something wrong.

[Rejarial Galatan]

SteelPaladin, on 25 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Complete strawman. The fact that BattleTech is so divorced from reality that "realism" arguments are absurd in no way requires, supports, or even hints at throwing completely random and senseless minimum ranges around. You don't think the gauss needs a minimum range for balance reasons? Fine. Argue the balance point w/o resorting to logical fallacies.

On the balance point, I disagree w/your assertion that the gauss is "in a bad spot." It is still arguably the most effective ballistic weapon in the game. Its rate of fire is hardly "obscenely low;" it is equal to a medium laser and faster than a large laser, equal to an AC/20, and on a par w/most missile weapons. It WILL BE fragile (it is not yet), yet it remains the only weapon whose balance mechanics require you to completely burn through a target's armor before they take effect (during which period the gauss is returning fire at full effectiveness if the pilot doesn't suck).

it is far to fragile, and has a slower than needed ROF.

Khobai, on 25 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Nope I dont see your point. Because Gauss has a minimum range in tabletop. None of those other weapons do.

In tabletop the Gauss has a minimum range for a reason. That reason is so the AC/20 retains its place as the best close-range ballistic weapon. A direct consequence of removing the minimum range is that the Gauss replaces the AC/20 as the best close-range ballistic weapon. That is why the minimum range needs to be re-added.

AC/20 = best close range ballistic weapon
Gauss = best sniping ballistic weapon

Simple as that. Gauss should not be the best at everything.

dude, this is a real time game, the reason TT has a min range on gauss is because it is a devastating weapon and blindingly massive, and as such can be unwieldy at best in TT, hence the min range. saying that TT is key and MUST be adhered to, then, DHS MUST be 2.0 to a SHS 1.0, we must have FULL radar, FULL magnetic sensors, FULL seismic, FULL 360 views from rear arc cameras, my ATLAS MUST have a rear fire arc. sorry, SOME things from TT do not translate well into a RT game. hell, by your logic we must only fire ONCE every 10 seconds, because THAT is TT ROF for ALL weapons iirc.

[wanderer]

I wouldn't cry in the least if other weapons got their canonical minimum ranges, even if that meant different effects.

Gauss rounds could still have their sabot over the penetrator as it clears the barrel (a short time, but hey it's a VERY fast round)- Gauss then deal half damage from 60-0m as the "dart" is still encased, resulting in a less effective hit.

AC/2 and AC/5 fire having canonical minimums (and UAC/5's) with similar effects would keep them from being point-blank buzzsaws.

[Rejarial Galatan]

thing of it is, the gauss slug is hyper sonic as it exits the weapon, and any sabot it may have would be torn off as it exits the barrel, and even IF it somehow survived the trip for the first say 60m that shell is going so fast, a sabot really wouldnt deaden the damage at all.

[wanderer]

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 November 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

thing of it is, the gauss slug is hyper sonic as it exits the weapon, and any sabot it may have would be torn off as it exits the barrel, and even IF it somehow survived the trip for the first say 60m that shell is going so fast, a sabot really wouldnt deaden the damage at all.

60 meters at over Mach 1 is an incredibly short time from clearing the barrel to losing said sabot- which may very well be a safety measure, as separation inside the barrel would likely wreck the gun and cause a massive explosion.

[SpiralRazor]

Ronin Starwalker, on 24 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

According to my calculations the GR should have a minimum range of 60m. Why is this not implemented, yet the PPC's minimum range is? Can anyone elaborate on the thought process behind this?

Neither should have minimum ranges.

[wanderer]

SpiralRazor, on 25 November 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Neither should have minimum ranges.

Actually, both should.

[Virisken]

LordBraxton, on 25 November 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

You aren't giving the soft science enough credit here. The PPC is supposed to be like a giant lightning cannon. The minimum range is supposed to involve feedback from the huge lightning burst arcing all over your own mech as well as theirs, causing damage to both you and the enemy. Just because Mechwarrior has never (been able to?) implemented it correctly...

so i can shot an enemy and hit all enemys in an area of 90m around it? wow that would make the ppc really usefull

[Onyx Rain]

wanderer, on 25 November 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Actually, both should.

= Not fun.

I don't have hard numbers but it seems like the majority don't want to play that game where ppc's and gauss or other weapons other then LRMs have min ranges.

There are ways to balance these things that leave them fun to use for those who want them, while addressing the concerns of the vocal minority who think there are to many in use and/or they are so over powered that they hurt the game.