18 replies to this topic

[Bulldodger]

Fellow Mechwarriors,
I am pretty sure you've all experience some frustrating situations on the battlefield that likely caused your team to lose. I wanted to summarize all these situations and serve them to everybody in order to be avoided in the future. Please add your comments.

• BASE UNDER ATTACK within first 1-2 minutes of the game
  
  • Don't know how many times this single message caused the battle to simply go wrong. Usually what happens is that some light enemy mech scooted around and got into the base while your team is engaging the enemy. Suddenly HALF (if not MOST) of your team's mechs are turning their backs and sporting for the base leaving you and other unfortunate players against charging horde of enemy mechs. Mechs that didn't RTB are dead within seconds leaving the rest at a singificant disadvantage (yes, 2 mechs are huge disadvantage).
    
  • RECOMMENDATION: Light mechs RTB ONLY! Why? You can get there faster AND you are up against another light making the battle even.
• JENNER/COMMANDO/CICADA raid
  
  • Extremely common. Your radar blips a mech, usually a light and suddenly the world is covered by trailing smoke of launched LRMS. Before LRMs reach the target the enemy is gone from the radar effectively making you waste valuable ammo. Oh, lights can OUTRUN LRMS - so even if they are still there, LRMs won't hit them.
    
  • Second thing: Medium, Heavy and Assault mechs - PLEASE DO NOT ENGAGE lights! To many times have I seen an entire group of atlases and catapults chasing (sic!) a Jenner. First - you waste your time, Second - you allow the advancing enemy force to get so much closer to you making LRMs inefficient.
    
  • RECOMMENDATION: Please leave Light mechs to Light mechs (basically) unless the enemy runs right into your crosshairs.
• DECIDING WHERE TO GO
  
  • Commonly seen as a "Left or Right?" or "Stay or go?" question. Its that simple. Just decide - that will increase your chances of winning significantly due to the fact that you all will be toghether.
    
  • RECOMMENDATION: Make statement - communicate with your teammates - your voice does matter. Single mech raids end fast - don't be THAT loser.
• CHECK YOUR TARGET'S STATUS
  
  • While spectating I've noticed that peeps make irrational decisions as to which part of the mech to aim for making the duel longer or simply losing it. Arms, legs or other parts are not that relevant as compared to RED(ish) parts. A shoulder (a pectoral actually) in an Atlas contains all the ammo, don't be afraid to shoot at it because if you get thru the armor the might mech might simply explode. If you don't do that - feel free to run around forever and take pounding.
    
  • RECOMMENDATION: Check status - aim for red. Cash the kill.

All right - thats it for now. I'll come back and add more (hopefully not).

Peace and good hunting!

[John MatriX82]

Nice advices but the answer is simple: PUGs. Or better noob pugs.

Too many times I've seen people launching LRMs within the minimum range with me raging in the chat that it was useless.. and many many others.

We absolutely need further guides and a d a m n training room/ground to teach newcomers how to move, target and so on.

Edited by John MatriX82, 26 November 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[Adridos]

John MatriX82, on 26 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Nice advices but the answer is simple: PUGs. Or better noob pugs.

The minimal range was sad to see, but nowdays seeing a gaussapult run straight into two streakcats while he could easily kill them from afar just makes you die inside... and when you try to explain his error, he doesn't even bother to reply.

[MustrumRidcully]

Most common tactical mistake: Recognize a group of enemy mechs, and run straight into it.

Gets me every time.

[FrostCollar]

John MatriX82, on 26 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Nice advices but the answer is simple: PUGs. Or better noob pugs.

Too many times I've seen people launching LRMs within the minimum range with me raging in the chat that it was useless.. and many many others.

We absolutely need further guides and a d a m n training room/ground to teach newcomers how to move, target and so on.

Oh, definitely. In the meantime though, I try to tell anyone I see using LRMs close up about the minimum range. I think only a handful have listened so far, but that's enough for me.

Also, I'm surprised about the "base" part - in many games I've seen people just ignore the base entirely, even if it is being captured at the moment as well as the times when everyone retreats. I suppose PUGs don't do anything in moderation.

[Karpundir]

A couple of extra pieces of advice from a player with several hundreds of, if not over a thousand, matches of experience under his belt:

TAKING ON LIGHT MECHS:
- Note the weapon loadout, as some lights pose a greater threat than others. If you are being poked at a lot in the back, you may want to call for some help or get your back up on a wall to avoid the light constantly getting in behind you
- Use streak missiles on light mechs, as these are a way to nearly guarantee hits
- take out a leg, if the mech is moving too fast for you to get any real damage on it. The legs are usually weakest in armour, so it's a good start. A legged light is pretty much dead.

HANDLING FAST BASE CAPTURES:
- I usually call for 2 mechs to go back to deal with a base cap attempt. Sometimes that mech is a fast dragon or hunchie and can take out a single light mech. If possible, send 1 light and 1 fast med mech, as they can quickly dispatch the threat(s) and get back to the main fight.
- If there are 2 or more mechs at the base, your returning party should have 1 extra mech above the capping party; however...
- If the entire enemy team is capping your base, ALL of your team should commit to going back OR capping with 2 of your fast or closest mechs running interference at the home base, so the main team can outcap the enemy. It can get real close in these types of matches, so judgement is required by the team leader.
- Sometimes this is a light mech tactic to just touch the base for a few moments and then hide to confuse and divide the other team and then the main force goes in hard and fast to take advantage of said confusion and/or a smaller team of mechs
- I find that most Streak SRM mechs are very effective at taking out light mechs, but you also need some speed or they will simply outrun your range.

USING LRMs:
- when the radar blips in and out, ask your scout/spotter if they have "eyes on target" before firing LRMs and wasting ammo. Artemis ammo is very pricey and you want every volley to count.
- watch for range changes on a target. If target is close to the max range and rapidly moving forward in the open, fire away. If there are hills or other cover, you want to make sure you have a clear line of sight on that mech before firing. If the enemy mech is retreating at 850+ range, then you may want to hold off on firing, as the missiles will likely be out of range by the time they near the target

DECIDING WHAT TO DO/WHERE TO GO:
- if you are a lone wolf and there is a pre-made group in your drop, go with what they ask you to do, even if you don't normally follow that strategy. You take advantage of their teamwork and likelihood that they are in voice chat and can focus on targets. Watch what they hit and follow them
- over time you will see basic starting points where a group moves to to cover avenues of attack/defense or just good spots for scouting or sniping. Depending on the mech you piloted, you will learn what to do in the first minute of the game.
- LONE WOLVES don't be afraid to ask what to do! I would rather have someone ask rather than run off and get killed. Every drop will produce a leader, even in a team of all lone wolves.

WHAT TO DO IF YOU LOSE ALL YOUR WEAPONS/AMMO:
- Option 1: draw enemy fire or be a meatshield for your teammates, especially if you are outnumbered. You may likely die, but that buys your teammates time to kill the one who killed you.
- Option 2: get to the cap - this can divide the opposing team and help your teammates or you just might get ignored and actually win on base capture. Only do this if it makes sense to do so (you think you can outcap the other team or your side has equal or more mechs in fighting condition).
- Option 3 (coming soon): when knock-down physics is re-implemented, you can help run interference using a literal hit and run tactic
- accept the fact that you will likely die, so don't go hide somewhere thinking you will save some C-Bills on repairs. You will get more if you can help your team win.

USE THE TERRAIN: Most lone wolves charge into battle in the open. This is a fatal mistake and they are rarely using cover to their advantage. Things you can do with cover are:
- get out of line of sight of incoming LRMs and long-range weapons
- buy you time to reload or cool down
- give your enemy time to focus on something else, letting you pop back into the fight and put in some damage
- make the enemy waste their ammo on blocked shots
- IMPORTANT NOTE: arm-mounted weapons can allow you to partially hide and still fire at an enemy. You duck back into cover with a couple of steps and move back out to fire once reloaded. A great tactic for long range mechs.

GET ON TEAMSPEAK: there are 3 different servers - EU/early closed beta players, NA and No Guts No Galaxy that contains a lot of organized merc corps. Search for "teamspeak" in the search bar in the forum screen and you will get the info you need to log in.

I have to run for now, but I will add more if this thread gets stickied or I come up with some good revelations.

Good luck out there and always think of how you can help your teammates to win. The repair bill is always worth a positive nod in your direction.

Edited by Karpundir, 26 November 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[Padic]

I feel like a lot of the advice given here is based on some gross oversimplifications (or, at least, having far more battlefield data than the average player).

In particular, I take issue with the "Don't Shoot at Lights" and the "Don't Defend Base Capture" statements.

My gut instinct is opposite for both.

With regards to shooting at scout mechs, perhaps I am still stuck in a mode of thinking that I developed before the LRM nerf, but back then, the plain and simple truth was that the light with the NARC/TAG was the mech that was killing you. Ignoring him and letting him spot for the LRM boats on the other side of the ridge was unambiguous suicide.

In modern times, with LRMs less powerful and LRM boats less dominating, perhaps this is less important. But another argument does still stand. If it comes down to a duel between me and another mech (assume I'm in, say, a Founders Hunchback), the mech I want to fight LEAST is the hyperfast Jenner. An Atlas, I can outmaneuver. I can beat mediums and heavies with superior accuracy and decision-making ... in a 1v1 with a Jenner, I will almost certainly get forced into a turning fight - and the Jenner wins.

Thus, I suggest an algorithm for determining kill order "Kill the guy you least want to have to duel first". Which, for most of us (I suspect), leaves the lights pretty high on the list.

Having a bunch of your team turn around to chase a light in minute 1 might frustrate you, but if you know your entire team is walking away from the main enemy force, why would you charge in anyway? Help refocus them by killing the light, and then you can deal with the new strategic situation.

And if I'm driving a big heavy assault mech, do you really expect me to ignore the little pest running around, chipping my armor off? On the hope that all the lights on my team aren't half way across the world, doing the same to them? I would argue that we can't afford to depend on other players that much.

As a full-time-PuGer (who doesn't spend enough time looking at the map), I have less than perfect information of the battlefield.

This means that when I see the base is under attack, I don't know if it's 1 light mech or a premade of 4xSSRMboats. If I was in voice communciation with the rest of my team, and we could count the visible enemies and assume that the rest are standing on top of our base, then we could calculate the appropriate amount of force to send to repel them. But I don't have that information, so I need a different solution.

Sending back every player (all 8 people on your team) (or, I suppose, rushing for their base - almost always a situation that I hate to see happen and try to avoid) more or less guarantees that you won't lose instantly, or sacrifice one of your two scouts to the 4 man group sitting in your base.

Sure, the team's assault mechs will almost certainly not participate in the fight at home, but is it better for them to retreat unnecessarily or for them to stubbornly hold their ground and choose to die?

Why are we advocating a tactic that sounds to me like "Gee. I sure hope our lights go back to defend the base, and that when they get there they will win"?

Well, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the real "common tactical errors" are "insufficient communciation", "bad snap decision making", and "an over-reliance on hope-based strategies".

EDIT: Whoops. Long.

TL,DR: I think OP oversimplifies some complicated, interesting problems, and that they require discussion and analysis.

Edited by Padic, 26 November 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Kiiyor]

These are excellent points Bulldodger!

The whole benny-hill thing around light mechs has reached friggin PANDEMIC proportions. I'm always amazed at how much chaos a single red triangle appearing behind all the little blue triangles can cause. It's worse for assaults; normally they're the ones left standing on a ridge saying "ok, everyone crest on my mark! Three, two, one... um... where the crap did everybody go?" while all the fast mediums and heavies are plodding back to base, drooling while humming yankee doodle and mashing the fire button while screaming "THMATH THE BAD GUUUUUYTH" like the hulk.

There's been a few post made about it above, but I heartily concur that the main cause is a lack of communication. I'm guilty of it also, but mainly because i'm fearful of contracting 'The Stupid™' if I have to interact with the majority-of-the-minority of puggers. In the situations listed above, all you really require is something like:

Kiiyor: "1 light at base, NonPuggerSpastic and I are turning back"

This is what it gets:


Kiiyor: "1 light at base, NotAPuggerSpastic and I are turning back"
Pugger1243: "HAHA MY FARTS ARE AT YOUR BASE YOU CAN"T TELL ME WHAT TO DO"
Er0ticFantasyAboutPh3lanK3lL: "NO, ALL KILL IT OR IT WILL CAP ZOMG"
PanickingN00b: "THERES AT LEAST 14 ATLASES AT BASE HELP"

Aaaand 23,456 brain cells will have committed suicide.

One nice thing to come out of all this though, is BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE. You sir, have just listed a tactical pamphlet with specific details on destroying poorly coordinated groups. Just change your perspective on reading it, and rename each point as "tactic1" etc.. then HEY PRESTO; you've taken the fury that playing in pugs creates, rolled it into a tight little ball, and tossed it at the enemy. I used to have a list like yours, now it's a list of 'cool **** to try'.

The red triangle behind the blue triangles is now one of my favorite tactics. it's why lights are so good; in the right hands, they stop being scouts, and become indiscriminate chaos grenades.

[Bulldodger]

Dear all thanks for the comments!

@John MatriX82 - fully agree but I've noticed that such behavior usually happens to Trial Mechs so I blame inexperience. Truth be told I believe the main fault is still in the MechLabs - you don't really get any info on the weapons. Hopefully this will be fixed.

@Karpundir - solid addition man! In regards to Teamspeak - I've read that there is some software to enable it but truth be told I'd rather wait for a bundled solution.

@Padic - Thanks for the comments man. Still I don't fully agree with some of your ideas.

First of all, kill the lights by all means but don't use an Atlas for it unless you're 1-1. Not saying you should ignore it - far from that - just don't jump into the fray of chasing a light with 3-4 other mechs thinking it would be an easy kill to up your score/cbills. Unfortunately, this is the case many times as Kiiyor pointed out. Lack of communication most definitely contributes but I think there is also lack of common sense (all it takes is to look at the radar to see how many are chasing the light).

Second thing - yeah, you can follow the crowd and chase the light but bare in mind that some mechs are faster than others so what happens is that your group spreads out effectively serving yourselves to the enemy one-two at a time instead of all at once.

Third - the duel concept. I'm right there with ya! Hate fighting lights 1-1 even though I tend to ride a fast rig (Dragon fitted for close range). Yet I'd rather focus on easier kills (medium mechs) and take those out relatively fast rather than run around chasing light which most likely will take me much longer allowing those medium mechs to take a much larger chunk out of my armor. I guess it all comes down to what situation you find yourself in.

Four - the base. I'm referring only to the first minutes of the game, when you KNOW that an atlas/awesome or anything with speed below 100 km/h won't get there. Later stages of the battle - fully agree - gotta go back in a force.

@Kiiyor - Truth is I tend to ride the light mech and be that chaos grenade - almost always works - almost as I do get engaged by light mechs sometimes and then it gets serious.

[Padic]

I see now. Well put on all points, then.

In fact, you should edit your first post to list "Lack of Common Sense" as the number one killer of mechwarriors today.

[Karpundir]

Padic, on 27 November 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

In fact, you should edit your first post to list "Lack of Common Sense" as the number one killer of mechwarriors today.

Sadly, common sense isn't all that common anymore. It should now be called UNCOMMON SENSE...

[BOOMLegShot]

LOSING THE CAP WAR


You and the enemy team are in a race capping each other's base. Your team is going to lose unless someone delays the enemy cap effort. There are one or two friendlies back at your base, but they decide to run AROUND the capture zone instead of inside it, accomplishing nothing. Yes, for some reason that lone light mech pilot thinks some sort of winning magic is going to happen if he keeps circling 3 Atlas outside the cap zone.


What to do- Stand inside the cap zone. You'll probably die but you'll buy your team time. If you don't want to die then for god's sake at least run to the corner and power down like a proper coward. Why on earth would you run around taking hits OUTSIDE the cap zone?


TRENCH WARFARE


These are the people who think simply standing around the middle of the map is helping the team. Is half your team being slaughtered by a concentrated push on the other side of the map? These guys will dutifully remain standing in the middle, just in case some surprise flank attack decides to come their way. Either that or they'll all be tied up by a single Jenner and will refuse to move until it's dead. Eventually half your team is slaughtered and these guys are mopped up.


What to do- ALWAYS either be involved in an important engagement (NOT chasing after a light), defending a push on your base, or going for the enemy base. If you're not ALWAYS moving to accomplish one of those three then you're just dead weight and might as well be afk.


THE POINTLESS SCOUT


A light mech on your team decides he's going to play scout. He runs far ahead of everyone else smack dab into the enemy team and dies within seconds. He thinks running around them spamming the R key until he's dead is accomplishing something. Worse, your LRM boats unload everything but the pointless scout cannot keep a line of sight lock on any target for more than 5 seconds so the missile salvos keep losing lock and missing.


What to do- If you're not going to stick around and maintain a single constant lock for your LRM mechs, then it's enough to simply target the mechs to let everyone know they're there, then bug out. Do not stick around situations where you'll quickly die. Scout and be annoying without suiciding.

Edited by BOOMLegShot, 27 November 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[somnia]

iv only ever played unorganized groups and something i notice even when on a decent team is friendly fire is off the charts. The worst part is most often it is the person hit by it who is at fault people tend to just make a mad dash at the enemy in an attempt to get there hits in and walk directly infront of a teammates ppc witch not only damages them but its 10 damage that the enemy isnt being hit with in exchange for some small medium laser straffing. I understand assult mechs making sheild out of them selves but that should be left to other mechs to get behind them and pop out and fire. The solution here is to watch your team on the map as well as the enemy and keep there movement in mind and be patient when rushing in to gang up on enemy mechs if the enemy is already engaged you have time to pick a good shot

[Elizander]

Bulldodger, on 26 November 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

CHECK YOUR TARGET'S STATUS

• 
  
  • While spectating I've noticed that peeps make irrational decisions as to which part of the mech to aim for making the duel longer or simply losing it. Arms, legs or other parts are not that relevant as compared to RED(ish) parts. A shoulder (a pectoral actually) in an Atlas contains all the ammo, don't be afraid to shoot at it because if you get thru the armor the might mech might simply explode. If you don't do that - feel free to run around forever and take pounding.
    
  • RECOMMENDATION: Check status - aim for red. Cash the kill.
  All right - thats it for now. I'll come back and add more (hopefully not).

Peace and good hunting!

Lag shield. Guessing where the CT is when the whole mech is already invisible is somewhat difficult.

[Adrienne Vorton]

1. light mechs should NOT be ignored, that´s true
2. light mechs should be chased by other lights and fast mediums, not by assaultmechs... that´s a real good tactic for a light mech to bind the enemy firepower btw. , while your own assaults and supporters proceed, so FIGHT the jenner, if it comes across you, but don´t chase it if you are slow and are barely able to hit it with your weapons... concentrate on the heavier opponents, that are most likely coming around the corner soon...

if ONE jenner can break a complete defense line, because everyone wants to be the hero who kills him... that match is most likely going to be very one sided

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 30 November 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[Padic]

On the other hand, if you have three of your team's fast movers chasing one Jenner, the slow movers are about to have a 5v7 to deal with. Not necessarily unwinnable, but certainly a dangerous position.

I feel like in circumstances like these, the slow movers would be better served by an organized retreat than by stubbornly holding the line (or, more commonly, bull-headedly marching forward into destruction. Because the idea of waiting another minute to shoot at bad guys is just too much to bear?)

Perhaps you're right that the Atlases and 'Phracts are foolish to try to chase down the Jenner, but they're equally foolish to try to force an engagement with the other team while they're unsupported.

[FrostCollar]

A lot of people are talking about people chasing lights, and that's a major issue. However, there's another one that I've seen less but is still annoying, and that is teammates failing to cap the enemy base. Defending your base should be done within the box if the enemy is already there, but you should also try to fight from the enemy base if attempting to cap. I've lost a few games when I've gone back to delay a cap against impossible odds only to see a few friendly mechs suddenly slow down and stop advancing to take potshots on a random Raven.

If your base is on the verge of being capped by an overwhelming force, you should either fall back (if close enough and fast enough) or push to cap the enemy base. You must choose, however.

[Arclight]

Bump, good stuff. I'd like to touch on something though:

Bulldodger, on 26 November 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

• DECIDING WHERE TO GO
  
  • Commonly seen as a "Left or Right?" or "Stay or go?" question. Its that simple. Just decide - that will increase your chances of winning significantly due to the fact that you all will be toghether.
    
  • RECOMMENDATION: Make statement - communicate with your teammates - your voice does matter. Single mech raids end fast - don't be THAT loser.

I've seen a lot of matches go down the drain because someone yells "TUNNEL" or "GOING LEFT" during countdown. The whole team rushing a certain route without knowing what the enemy is doing turns the match into a crapshoot; it's possible you pass each other without knowing, at which point the deciding factor becomes which team took the shortest route or has the highest average speed.

Base rushes are quite simply stupid from a tactical standpoint. The reason they work is because they aren't countered. Take the time to observe; thermals really help pick out distant movement. Let the lights do their jobs to find the enemy concentration and relay their position and/or axis of advance.

---
This also opens up the option for defence and ambush: if you know the general route the enemy takes (left flank, right flank, pushing through center), it is possible to shift the entire team to block their advance (the team does need to shift position though: taking pot shots from the center while an enemy team stomps past on the flank with a clear line to your base doesn't help).

Most maps have a lot of chokepoints where you can effectively ambush your enemy, focusing fire from all friendlies into enemy 'Mechs as they apear. Tunnels and valleys especially can be death traps as the first enemies can't stop or retreat without running into or blocking the shots of their team. Conversely, try not to lead a team through bottlenecks unless you know you won't get engaged during transit, or there's an enemy team waiting for you to apear on the other side.

[jper4]

i tend to respond to most base caps even though i'm in a hunchy because i find that when i don't there's a pretty good chance no one else does (unless it's squirrel hunting season- then lots of people head back)

worst ones are when we're up 4-0 and get the msg, i'm on the other side of the map so think "ok we have all these extra mechs- saw a few lights to start they'll get back and we'll be fine" next thing i know it's 6-1 we're winning and get the defeat message. if i do see lights heading back i go back to the main fight (thanks lights) but alas this doesn;t happen as often as i'd hope.

or i do make it back to defend the base- find two streakcats there, die horribly and we lose shortly afterwards and i'm the only death on my team.

i have found that using the tatical screen gives me a better idea of whether or not anyone is responding to the cap.