30 replies to this topic

[Xenok]

My answers to both questions (were I to answer) would be no. Several reasons for this.

• Trial Mechs operate outside the normal rules. This creates an incomplete experience for new players, a mechanic that can be taken advantage of by experienced players and a source of frustration for those wanting team mates who are playing to win in Pick-Up Groups (PUGs)
  
• Trial Mechs drop a new player into a PvP game with no experience on the part of the player. Often with a mech that cannot manage heat effectively. This can only be frustrating to a new player and its the only option they have.
  
• Trial Mechs do nothing to teach a new player to play.

Next, please do not post whines about the trial system here. I have done enough of that above. I would like this thread to be about alternate solutions if the polls show they are needed, so please post your ideas.



My Idea is simple.
(NOTE: This is no longer simply my idea, I have incorporated ideas from the thread below into my original post. Thanks everyone for your feedback. I will continue to read through the posts and add additional ideas to the main post at the start of the thread.)

Have an AI driven training camp new pilots go through. The following would be a suggested course availability in one of 4 mechs (use the same mechs that were available in the legendary founders). The player would get 1000 MC and 1,000,000 CBills for completing the training with each mech. They would be required to go through it on at least two in order to have enough to purchase a mech. The basic concept of a training area seems to be universally desired.

NOTE: Many have suggested that AI would take to long to code, and that it is not needed as some stationary targets that can be shot at on the run would be effective. I still believe that AI is the best option, but if that is not being coded for anything else then leave it out, give us some stationary or targets or even a mech that just runs around in a circle with no intelligence to shoot at in that case.

• Course 1: Piloting: The AI takes the pilot through the keys needed to move, then has the pilot running an obstacle course, next part they must run an obstetrical course while targeting items that are directly in-front of them and the third part run the course while targeting objects to the left and right of them.
  
• Course 2: Weapons & Heat: First, walk them through grouping weapons and chain fire verses alpha strikes. have them fire both a bit so they can see the difference in heat. Talk about heat management as well. Second part, same obstacle course with targets in front of mech, they must score so much damage on the targets, third part targets off to the left or right and the same damage must be scored.
  
• Course 3: Open Battle with 3 AI mechs, 1 at a time in three waves. first being a stand around dummy and the last being a good mover, all with limited offensive attacking.
  
• Course 4: Mech Lab: Mech customization course. Section 1 would be on the GUI, section 2 on critical slots, section 3 on upgrades, section 4 on hard points and section 5 on pilot skills and modules.

ADDED NOTE: Additional ideas on courses that should be included. HUD introduction and use (likely during the piloting course), Systems and Weapons training (likely part of the Mech Lab course and a spreadsheet documenting the weapons. These spreadsheets are available from the player community now.


If you run through the course on each size of mech you end up with 4k MC and 4mil CBills to buy and customize your first mech.

ADDED NOTE: The idea (which occurred in multiple posts as of this edit) to extend this practice area, not only to new players but to the entire player base is an excellent one. This would provide a place for players to test designs against heat, or weapon damage. Having simple text that came up on target to show the damage, or targets with Mech Rag dolls that would show you where you hit when you fired a weapon at it would be great. One could then take in any mech they own.

TRIALS ADDED NOTE: Many people brought up the point that it would be really good to have trials PUGS go up against other TRIAL pug groups only. This would solve several problems with trials (including suicide trails in full games) and allow everyone to have a more equal footing when running trial Mechs. Also a great idea.

REWARDS NOTE: Some brought up that the rewards were to much. The exact amount of the reward should be designed to allow a player to get a Mech and do a fair bit of customization. The idea is to get them hooked so they want to spend more while having the full experience of the game. Other concerns were that new players would get the start up money and others who worked for there start-up money would get nothing, or that people would spam new accounts and somehow transfer funds around or otherwise abuse the system.

This system would have players trained to play the game and playing to win from the start. They would have one mech, fairly well outfitted to start with, which is far more likely to draw them in to buy a second and third of the same chassis and then additional chassis down the line.

I am going to give this thread another day, then close it. At that point I will write up a post in the suggestion forum that combines many of the ideas into something a bit more concise.

Edited by Niko Snow, 16 April 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[WardenWolf]

I think a tutorial like this is *desperately* needed - but I don't think it needs to include AI mechs (which would be a ton of extra work for the dev team). Just a guided walk-through about controls, targeting, weapons (grouping + firing + ranges, etc) and the HUD would work, and there could be dummy mech targets for practice without needing work on AI design.

[Xenok]

WardenWolf, on 26 November 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I think a tutorial like this is *desperately* needed - but I don't think it needs to include AI mechs (which would be a ton of extra work for the dev team). Just a guided walk-through about controls, targeting, weapons (grouping + firing + ranges, etc) and the HUD would work, and there could be dummy mech targets for practice without needing work on AI design.

I would prefer the AI piece in as well. I think they are planning to have AI aspects to the game eventually and that section could be added when AI is in the game for other purposes as well. If there is no plan for AI (I hope this is not the case) then yes it would be better to leave the AI course out, or simply but dummy mechs in (as you suggest) and still move to a system like this.

[Flapdrol]

I believe there should be an option to play with and agians trial mechs only, just because they're terrible, especially at heat dissipation.

[Troggy]

A tutorial in general would require a bunch of programming. I don't think it's necessary. A couple more videos would suffice. Does anyone really want to play a tutorial? Learning as you go, in game, is pretty much par for the course.

Much more valuable, IMO, is that they simply select the rotating trial mechs from an easy to play subset of custom mechs, rather than canonical varieties. Make them low heat, max 2 weapons group type builds.

For example, a missile and med pulse laser Awesome. A hunchie or jenner with a bunch of med lasers and a tonne of double HS (lots of heat, but fast dissipation). Maybe even a simple gauss cat. Would be fast, easy, and require no programming. Indicate in a box on the front page what the FOTW trial build is, and how to go about playing it.

Basically, show the players what it is actually like to play in a number of different styles or philosophies of mech.

And Done.
--
Troggy

[Arcaist]

The trial mech system as it is right now cant stay the way it is.

Basically, trials are great for...guess...trials. (e.g. testing a new mech type, before purchasing it)

BUT:

New players are nothing more than victims, when they are released upon the battleground.

A "neutral" training ground is an absolutely "MUST HAVE" for this game.

My Idea for New Players:

Give them an starting amount of lets say 3,5 bil CB, together with a couple of premium days.
So they can choose if they want a small mech and build it up, or a medium mech, which is relatively basic.
The premium days (i´d say 2-3) gives them a taste whats in, IF they spend some bucks on MC....otherwise, the grind will be their fate. And again, a playable tutorial is absolutely neccessary! And even if its just an empty map, with some static
targets on it, so the new players learn to walk, aim and shoot. Veteran players would also appreciate that (IMHO, of course) for being able to test new builds, setup weapon groups, duel 1:1 (just an instand idea, solaris setting would be even better!) and so on

Besides of that, trials can still remain ingame, just for testing new mech types (the basic ones)

[MasterBLB]

Trial mechs are nice to check what the game has to offer (more or less),but as my predecessors pointed they can't learn geenhorns very basics how to play.It's just like a someone without driving experience had a choice between bugatti,ferrari and etc for it's first drive ever.So I'm with you on the opinion some interactive tutorial(s) are very much needed.Right now it's like jumping into deep water,and either a greenie will learn or will drown.
Not tu mention these tutorials will have to strongly point how important is team cooperation in the game.

However,trial mechs allows players to see different classes/weapons,for me ex I could try if I can handle and like sniping using Gauss Rifle,so they are not worthless.

[ZigZagJoe]

Trial mechs **** all over what has been the basis of battletech for all time: customization.

You are stuck in under-provisioned, overheating, eclectic piles of crap that are nearly useless in all roles, and you can't do anything about it until you spent about 8 hours of real time to get your own medium mech. Or spend cash. Fat chance, with the gameplay bugs - game quality has been going straight downhill with each patch, which baffles me.

As others have mentioned, an extensive tutorial is necessary to ease the way for newer players. Offer the choice of a centurion with an AC, the laser centurion, and the LRM hunchback. Run them through some scripted (that means, no AI - very easy to do) encounters, teach them to get around, hit targets with each type of weapon, teach them not to go head to head with an atlas.... etc. Optimally, customization would be taught too. Each encounter should be infinitely repayable with each of the 3 mechs, but no rewards.

To finish the tutorial, have a PVP mission that a certain score is required to pass. After that, some fluff about being granted a commission who cares, give them the choice of those 3 mechs. No strings attached.

Oh, and begin actually begin testing builds before they get deployed. It's not like it's rocket science, corral a few interns and stick them in a match. There's no excuse for some of the bugs that are deployed.

Honestly, PGI needs to hurry up and get MWO to something resembling a playable game, because the battletech fanbase that was going to spend money by and large has shot their load; they are no longer a major source of constant income. The F2P ideal is to get people having fun for free, who then buy some premium currency to ease the way or get something unique. Which isn't happening, by and large.

What happens right now?

Random pubbie installs MWO. Random pubbie logs in. Random pubbie maybe plays a few matches, and gets torn a new one. Random pubbie is not having fun. Random pubbie closes MWO. Random pubbie does not buy MC. Random pubbie uninstalls. Random pubbie then warns their friends against MWO.

Why? Terrible glitches, hostile UI (and i thought i was bad at UI design), no customization, balance issues, no tutorial, severe time requirements... this is not rocket science. The game was not ready for release (sorry, "open beta") but it's a bit late for that now. Remains to be seen if PGI can recover from the negative experiences people are having.

Edited by ZigZagJoe, 26 November 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Jabilac]

I would like to see a Target Range map. Any player (new or experienced) could load a standard mech on the Target Range and run around with it to get a feel for the way the mech handles, where weapons fire from, how much heat a weapon generates, ect... In the Target Range there could be Text Bubbles that pop up to describe how weapons work, how heat works, how movement works, how targeting works, what the different parts of the HUD are for, ect...

Also I think Trial Only matches would be great but only for a newbie account (first 2 weeks) to allow players a place to learn to play with against other newbies. Also please have a "Potential Repair/Re-Arm" message pop up to let players know how much that match would have cost them if they owned the Mech. Experienced players can handle a Trial Mech and shouldn't be loaded into the Newbie Zone.

I learned to play in a Trial Mech and it wasn't terrible... They are not the most heat effiecient mechs, they don't have all the bells and whistles, and there is a learning curve but I think it does work, just needs a little imiprovement.

Edit: redundant statement removed

Edited by Jabilac, 26 November 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[Morikuro]

What ZigZagJoe said. Ultimately the most relevant factor in this game is whether a new player has fun. Because if a new player has fun, he'll possibly spend money. If he doesn't, and meets a stonewall of L2P/grind it up nub, then he'll simply flip the game the bird and badmouth it to his friends (at this point, not unjustifiably). He certainly won't pay money, and he'll actively warn other people against paying money, or even playing the game.

[AlanEsh]

I spoke with a coworker today who tried MWO over the weekend. His thoughts were:

1 ) this game is hard to pick up
2 ) rewards for getting his *** handed to him repeatedly for 4 hours were too low to be rewarding
3 ) this game REALLY NEEDS AN IN-GAME TUTORIAL AND A PRACTICE MAP.

And he said he'd really like to play with the mechlab, but he's not having much fun yet so doesn't know if he'll continue.

(P.S. he said nothing about wishing he had a 3rd person view to ease his piloting burden )

[Xenok]

Angelicon, on 26 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

I spoke with a coworker today who tried MWO over the weekend. His thoughts were:

1 ) this game is hard to pick up
2 ) rewards for getting his *** handed to him repeatedly for 4 hours were too low to be rewarding
3 ) this game REALLY NEEDS AN IN-GAME TUTORIAL AND A PRACTICE MAP.

And he said he'd really like to play with the mechlab, but he's not having much fun yet so doesn't know if he'll continue.

(P.S. he said nothing about wishing he had a 3rd person view to ease his piloting burden )

I have introduced 10 people besides myself to the game. Out of those only 2 are still playing. 8 of the 10 have played MW3 and MW4 or more and loved them. 1 of the two that had not played before it my son. At first he did not like the game at all. I spent some money on his account to get a mech and coached him on Mechlab and piloting a bit. He now loves the game. I can not help but think that if the other 8 that have dropped the game, some without trying it based on the word of those who did try it, would have found the game worth investing in. I think this issue is key to getting a paying player base to keep the game going for years to come. I also have no plans to introduce others without having a tutorial they can play through.

[Stingz]

One of the biggest problems with trial mechs is the poor combat potential. Low armor, low HS, low speed. The current trial mechs feel like the bottom of the barrel, walking targets for players with Custom rides.

They need to modify trial mechs from stock to make them work in MWOs triple fire rate system. Stock mechs were made for TT, not a MechWarrior game.

Giving all trial mechs DHS would give newbies something to work towards, and a mech that doesn't bake the pilot

Edited by Stingz, 26 November 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Leroy Jenkens]

The biggest problem is that the economy is borked. Leroying light trial mechs into the enemy team to get quick spots while they mow you down. Then rinse and repeat. Their is no way that this should be the most efficient way to make the most cbills per hour.

What is it 40k for a loss and 60k for a win or something like that? All while making 10-20k in bonuses for spotting, damage, kills and salvage. People should be getting like 10k for a loss and 15k for a win. If you get good damage in, kill a mech or 2 and spot a few that get killed and or cap. That's where the 60k+ should come from not just from logging into a match.

TBH though I've only made a little over 2mil cbills since open beta. The potential grind is just too daunting. I only logon to try the latest patch hoping for a fix or something new and exciting just to be letdown again. I may also log in occasionally on the weekends in a drunken stupor for a match or 2 if I'm burnt on PS2.

[Cicatrix]

I like your idea of a training camp. And I agree with your poll's results. Trial Mechs are frustrating, they should have customization options at the very least, otherwise players will get upset being forced to use 4 mechs that are sub par and have to play upwards of 30 games or more just to be able to buy the cheapest mech and THEN customize it. Players may get bored, or simply not have fun for those 30 games.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Also in the tutorial they could include something about all the different attachments...Not everyone can ramble off the weight and effective range of all the weapons by memory alone...You would have newcomers to battle tech running around here with bad armor setups, atlasas with xl engines and not enough heatsinks...ammo/gauss rifles in sections without case Etc. A simple how to shoot and get from point A to point B. and not to go all Head-crab on an atlas or into a wall of lrm death wont suffice, the game is too in depth for that.

and also +1 to the customizable trial mechs...when i see a trial atlas sitting alone i pretty much chalk up a guaranteed overheat, and easy kill....those setups are horrible.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 26 November 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[What Trigger]

Ok, I just had an idea.

Reduce the number of trial mechs to 1 at best 2 this would stop the whole leave battle and get in another mech after suiciding as they have to wait till the battle finishes, basically making them play so they arnt sitting around waiting for the mech.

Also maybe if the numbers of trial mech are reduced set up a system where the trial mech swap say every 4 hours to still add flavour

[p4r4g0n]

If you want to keep MWO with its current complexity and depth, a tutorial is a MUST. Especially when there is no pre-game lobby, post game chat and non-existent text chat shortcuts.

The absence of any of these things have puzzled me from day 1 and the lack of any info on this from the devs makes me think that this is as intended.

[MustrumRidcully]

I very much support a tutorial, though I have my doubts that it can include AI mechs. Unless the Cryengine makes creating AIs simple, I believe that would require a lot of work, and will not be done until they actually consider a PvE game mode. Which they haven't announced yet and is more a pie in the sky dream. (Even though with their state of the net code, the game might be better off as a PvE game.)

[Quad Ace]

Personally, I think the development of an AI would significantly add to MWO in the future.

One of the topics that is frequently discussed is the superiority of Clan-Tech. Now I'm not an expert on lore, but I imagine that it takes a while for that tech to spread throughout the inner sphere. During this time, the Clans have a significant advantage...and any player with access will have a similar advantage. Most everyone agrees this isn't good.

If an AI were already in place, the potential for PvE content is there as well. As much as I love PvP (and I do), it's fun to get with a few buddies and take on challenges beyond "Kill these players" or "Capture this objective".

More importantly, PvE provides an arena for new players to learn the ins and outs of piloting progressively By offering PvE content of differing difficulties, players can work their way up to being at least useful in PvP. This would do a lot to offset the learning curve, make vets happier (don't have to deal with carrying new players), provide a reliable source of income, and add variety to a game that is begging for it.

I may have to post this as a new thread...