457 replies to this topic

[Ashla Mason]

Damion Wolf, on 31 January 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

I always wonder why people aruge with trolls.

Because every now and again it evolves into either a worthwhile debate or an opportunity to spin it around and counter troll.

[Pariah Devalis]

...of course, even in a worthwhile debate, when it comes to two opposing views, someone is almost never going to completely swing the opposition completely around. Debates are usually more for a neutral audience, softening the oppositions resistance to new ideas, or simply for the fun of it.

This is, of course, contingent on both parties having a rational exchange of ideas without getting too emotionally invested in the arguments they are making or defending.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 31 January 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

1. Only the crusaders (Jade falcon, ice hellion, the dessicated remains of smoke jaguar, blood spirit, fire mandrill, hells horses, burrock, wolf and star adder) fought, both jade falcon and Star adder were able to defeat the forces arrayed against them while clan wolf forced a draw. Further, all of the defeated clans were home clans and quite inexpierienced in the ways of IS tactics.

So the Invader Clans improved due to exposure to IS Culture and Warfare.

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

3. So Novels > Source materials? Because a good half of the information about the setting comes from the Source materials.

Yes, because the Source books are usually written from the Perspective of that Faction and thus cast a different (more benevolent) light onto that faction. Also Everytime the IS was on the same Techlevel (happens rarely I know) the Clans weren't able to win, or it was a close fight.

Keep in mind that you have to compare Clan forces to the better Units of the IS, since to compare Raw Talent (which you're born with) you need to compare Mechwarriors that have similar training. And the training of Clan warriors lends them to become more narrowminded that their IS counterparts.
The Genetic superiority of Clan Mechwarriors is a myth, the simple fact that only 1/30 of a Geschko becomes a Mechwarrior is a big hint. The only area where it succeded is Clan Elementals, though you don't need much physical strength if you wear Power Armor, thus it's rather pointless. Except for Melee Combat.

[Ashla Mason]

The difference is that the home clans weren't familiar with the IS tactics and were blind sided by the complete absence of respect for zellbrigen by everyone that wasn't a nova cat. Meanwhile, the IS had bondsmen who were able to give tactical information on how the home clans would respond. In short, it was something of a stacked deck.

Further, your comparison (by your own admission) is flawed; you fail to consider that while there are more expierienced/skilled/elite IS units that are a match for your average clan units, the clans do in fact have more expierienced/skilled/elite units of their own. hence 1v1= the clan coming out on top mor often then not.

The flaw in relying on novels as a source of info, is that aside from them being used to push certain characters/factions into favourable lights, you also get times where the writer will turn out something that doesn't fit into the rest of the setting (such as the consternation that many have with far country). Further, you can usually pick out what is ego wanking with source materials and what is underlying truth.

And yet again: the clans genetic supperiority is canon fact, as represented in numerous novels and A time of war, which is written as a pure rules book.

BTW: where are you getting 1/30 from?

[Jukebox1986]

I like the Clans for the same reason i like the Houses - i can hate them.

Dont get me wrong, there is a lot of things you can like about the Clans (the people, not their toys), they have values to stand (and to die) for. Just like the I.S.
The Clans stands for progress, a society who wants to improve every day, in every way.
The I.S. stands for freedom. A society that values treachery the same way as honor.

But i cant stand both of em, 6 houses + Comstar, over 20 Clans... and there are not many i think highly of. Clan Blood Spirit comes to mind. Capella under Sun Tzu. The "false" Marik. But it is mostly the leaders i like, not the mindset of the people. So i can jump into my Mech and earn money with their deaths without feeling bad about it.
The Gray Death Leagion, the Kell Hounds, Camachos Caballeros (excluding Cassie), thats where my allegiance is. Money - not politics.

But the thing i like the most about the clans is that, without them, i could have never come up with this idea:

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 01 February 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

The difference is that the home clans weren't familiar with the IS tactics and were blind sided by the complete absence of respect for zellbrigen by everyone that wasn't a nova cat. Meanwhile, the IS had bondsmen who were able to give tactical information on how the home clans would respond. In short, it was something of a stacked deck.

Further, your comparison (by your own admission) is flawed; you fail to consider that while there are more expierienced/skilled/elite IS units that are a match for your average clan units, the clans do in fact have more expierienced/skilled/elite units of their own. hence 1v1= the clan coming out on top mor often then not.

The flaw in relying on novels as a source of info, is that aside from them being used to push certain characters/factions into favourable lights, you also get times where the writer will turn out something that doesn't fit into the rest of the setting (such as the consternation that many have with far country). Further, you can usually pick out what is ego wanking with source materials and what is underlying truth.

And yet again: the clans genetic supperiority is canon fact, as represented in numerous novels and A time of war, which is written as a pure rules book.

BTW: where are you getting 1/30 from?

Well if we include the lesser Units of IS, we'd have to include the Clan Second Line and Solahma Units (+Homeclans, which are no match for the IS as stated by someone else). Well and Clan Wolf had Phelan Ward to get them that Victory at Tukayid, the advice given was ignored by other Khans (speaks well for their leadership qualities ).

Though the top IS Units have beaten the Clans more than once.

The same problem with novels is also apparent in Sourcebooks. I've read both .

1/30 is a rough sample of all Data avaible in Novels/Sourcebooks which I remember out of hand, might be a bit higher/lower though, considering we're talking about genetic Superiority a failure rate above 50% would still be HORRIBLE.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

The Clans are "better" than the IS in the same way that some people believe one ethnicity or race is superior to another today. Basically it's generations of racism to the point where they actually start to believe their own nonsense. Much like white supremacists of today.

The clans dominated through superior technology and a surprise attack against forces who were all pointed at enemies in the opposite direction. Once the IS got organised the Clans got ***** slapped.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Well the Clans lost in the Great Refusal, which was fought on their terms. And Clan Sourcebooks contain a lot of Clan propaganda. The Black Thorns for example even beat the Clans while being outteched. And once they had their omnis they kicked their *****. One Random merc unit beating Clans like it's nothing.

Just because a Clan Sourcebook says that Clan Warriors are better isn't a proof, if all other Source Material indicates that Clanners aren't better.

Point taken. However we must look at the big picture. How did we get to the Great Refusal? We must go backward to find out. How did the IS get the chance to launch an offensive when they were always on the defensive? They smashed the Jaguars. How did they get the chance to launch a major offensive when they were always on the defensive? We go back again, the Truce of Tukayyid. The Clans were written to not take Terra. The IS is the home team & the Clans are the away team. The writers did not put pen to paper with the express desire to have the away team win. Maybe some battles but certainly not the war. Let us look at everything:

1. Unlike Operation Klondike (which was a resounding success), Revival was not prosecuted by all the Clans. Why? Obviously if the Clans win, it is game over. There is no story line to build off of from there.

2. Leo Showers, the ilKhan, the only person providing any sort of cohesion among the Clans gets killed in a bridge explosion caused by the suicide run of a IS pilot who was part of a group that made a bad jump. What a fluke.

3. The Clans as advanced as they are, are beholden to laws, policies & procedures & as such has to stop a WINNING campaign (the source material confirms that the IS were suffering staggering losses at this point), fly all their front line troops back to Strana Mechty to vote in a new ilKhan. During this time, the Wolf Dragoons rally the IS, get them to unite (sort of), provide the SS with new mechs, equipment, supplies, training & most importantly, intelligence. The IS got schooled in Clan tactics, deployments etc.

Quote

Placing his palms flat on the desk, Wolf leaned forward. "Now the two of us will become your instructors. Some of you have already seen battle, but even with that, the total sum of experience of those seated at this table would not equal what the average Clan warrior goes through in his training."

Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy

(Oh look another reference to Clan pilots being superior to the IS ones. I think that makes three now. )

4. The new ilKhan is a Warden & does everything in his power to sabotage the invasion. He also does not press for unity between the Clans which was their downfall as confirmed in

Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 3 - Lost Destiny Pg.171 (I think) Even A.Focht, hero of ComStar & saviour of the IS admitted it

Quote

Focht turned on him. "Your people got off lightly? Are you not the ilKhan? Do you not lead all the Clans?"

The ilKhan slowly shook his head. "As this battle would prematurely decide the end of our quest, our crusade, it was determined that control of the individual operations would fall to the Clan Khans. Though I was permitted to review all data coming up from the planet, I was not obliged to distribute it unless asked. As no one saw fit to request my thoughts, I was free to act to the benefit of my Clan."

So, they forced you to act on your own and you let them twist in the wind. "Had you led them, coordinated them, you would have defeated me."

This is also confirmed in A Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans Sourcebook Pg.75




This is referred to as the Year of Peace confirmed in Era Report 3052 that had this not happened, the IS would have lost & there would not have even been a Tukayyid. (Again this is the lore. I will take what the people who wrote the universe say over anybody else anytime.)



The facts speak for themselves. The writers could have had Revival prosecuted the same way as Klondike but chose not to because the home team cannot lose.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 01 February 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 01 February 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

Well if we include the lesser Units of IS, we'd have to include the Clan Second Line and Solahma Units (+Homeclans, which are no match for the IS as stated by someone else). Well and Clan Wolf had Phelan Ward to get them that Victory at Tukayid, the advice given was ignored by other Khans (speaks well for their leadership qualities ).

Though the top IS Units have beaten the Clans more than once.

And unblooded, raw Clan units have decimated hardened House units and A grade merc companies as shown in operation audacity.

Further, Solhama are Suicide legions, perfectly willing to take on impossible jobs to have one more taste of glory and get themselves annihilated in the process.

Quote

The same problem with novels is also apparent in Sourcebooks. I've read both .

So using your logic then nothing can be believed in the battletech setting.

Quote

1/30 is a rough sample of all Data avaible in Novels/Sourcebooks which I remember out of hand, might be a bit higher/lower though, considering we're talking about genetic Superiority a failure rate above 50% would still be HORRIBLE.

I need a source (novel, dev commentary, Source book... something official) to back that up or I'm going to have to assume you are simply pulling numbers out of thin air.

Like how 1/31 of cappellans forcibly copulate with barnyard animals while eating tetatae.

[Sadistic Savior]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

The FWL is a prime example of why democracy isn't inherently superior to more centralized commands; most of it's history is spent squabbling over anything and everything and it only ever becomes a force to be reckoned with when the Captain general is given the freedom to do with as he or she sees fit.

It may not always be more EFFECTIVE for certain things, but it is always more just.

[guardian wolf]

Jaroth is correct on all counts. You have to think like a strategist. The IS has a strategically disadvantage, that was mitigated by the writers making it possible for them to win. In any war game simulation, of which I could probably set up, the Clans would literally crush the enemy beneath them. Even in a long drawn out campaign against the might of the IS as a whole, the Clans would win, due to a number of factors. These include: better quality mechs, higher quality standard pilots, better supply lines, more ships of war, better ships of war, etc. etc. I literally could list about thirty things that the Clans had going for them, all advantages. The IS had tactics, and numbers when we only account for the Clans that actually invaded and were successful (Jade Falcon, Smoke Jaguar, Ghost Bear, and my personal favorite, Wolf). Granted, that's why I liked the stories of the Clan Invasion, because of the fact that all the odds were against the IS, but, little by little, the tide turned to their favor, especially as the Wardens began doing what they could to help them. I personally am of the Wolf Warden philosophy, so I probably belong with the rest of the Wolves in Exile. Jaroth and I do not agree on many things, but on this, he has my support and concurrence.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 01 February 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

I need a source (novel, dev commentary, Source book... something official) to back that up or I'm going to have to assume you are simply pulling numbers out of thin air.

One example is the beginning of the Jade Falcon Triology (Aidan Pryde), though in most Books detailing the upbringing of Clanners it's noted that most of their Geschkos fails at being a Warrior to a high perecentage (2-3 left usually).

Jaroth Winson, on 01 February 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

The writers did not put pen to paper with the express desire to have the away team win. Maybe some battles but certainly not the war.

The facts speak for themselves. The writers could have had Revival prosecuted the same way as Klondike but chose not to because the home team cannot lose.

Well the Writers could also have written the clanners not be stupid idiots and format their HDDs containing IS Star League Tactics.
The Writers also could have made the Clans more believable. But they did not.

The Writers could also have given the IS a military force appropiate to the space occupied, but they did not. etc. etc.

We can talk all day what the Writers did or did not write, but that would be rather pointless. And the reason the Clans were able to carve a Way through the IS is due their technological advantage not them being the better pilots.

A Clan Mech is to an old IS Mech (3025) like a custom MWO Mech is towards a Stock Design. The difference is brutal, even with the rather stupid stock configs which most clanners love to use for reasons.

[Ashla Mason]

Sadistic Savior, on 01 February 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

It may not always be more EFFECTIVE for certain things, but it is always more just.

If government is incapable of serving the people due to internal paralysis then what is the value of government?

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 01 February 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

We can talk all day what the Writers did or did not write, but that would be rather pointless. And the reason the Clans were able to carve a Way through the IS is due their technological advantage not them being the better pilots.

There tech gave them an edge for sure as did their (canon) genetic supperiority.

Frankly ken, you should stop right about now, since you are on the verge of admitting that your entire arguement is based on personal preference rather then objective fact.

[Skylarr]

The Clanners were battle hardened warriors in very advance machines of war. Fighting against green warriors in Mechs many generations old.

I fail to see the honor in these battles.

Ulric was opposed to the invasion from the beginning. He was a warden. He accepted the tittle of IlKhan because he know he could lessen the damage to the IS in this role. When Tukayyid happened he saw a way to stop the invasion and in the process make Clan Wolf would look Superior to all the other Clans.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tank Boy Ken, on 01 February 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

One example is the beginning of the Jade Falcon Triology (Aidan Pryde), though in most Books detailing the upbringing of Clanners it's noted that most of their Geschkos fails at being a Warrior to a high perecentage (2-3 left usually).

Well the Writers could also have written the clanners not be stupid idiots and format their HDDs containing IS Star League Tactics.

The Writers also could have made the Clans more believable. But they did not.

The Writers could also have given the IS a military force appropiate to the space occupied, but they did not. etc. etc.

We can talk all day what the Writers did or did not write, but that would be rather pointless. And the reason the Clans were able to carve a Way through the IS is due their technological advantage not them being the better pilots.

A Clan Mech is to an old IS Mech (3025) like a custom MWO Mech is towards a Stock Design. The difference is brutal, even with the rather stupid stock configs which most clanners love to use for reasons.

It is not pointless because it deals with the heart of the matter. Why do you think there are at least 3 Pearl Harbor movies? The great enemy attacks us, we suffer devastating losses but we rally & emerge supreme. I accept the fact that the Clans were not going to take Terra, not because they did not have the resources, leaders, skills or resolve to do so, but they would never be written that way. The Clans invade, they take over. THE END. There would be no way to expand the universe. I get that & accept it.

You need to accept that the Clans are better because the source material says so. It is there in black & white. Also they did not format any HDDs about IS tactics, they simply gave the IS a chance to fight honorably. The Clans have different levels of warrirors. There are front line troops that get the best & most times toughest assignments. There are second line troops who are held in reserve for bids or used as garrison forces. Then there are wash-outs, test-downs & solahmas who are used to fight bandits. This last group does not offer batchalls or reduces their forces by bidding, they attack with all their might because the enemy is not deemed worthy.

Take Wolves on the Border for example:

Quote

“I am Hans Vordel, Lieutenant in Wolf's Dragoons. I am a fourth-generation ‘MechWarrior. I have seen twenty-four-cycles and have fought on more worlds than I have years. Who among you has the courage to face me in single combat?”



His challenge was awkward and his Japanese abominable, but the intent was clear. Silence greeted it. No one in the Kurita force spoke, on either the open channel or any of the protected frequencies. The challenge was unexpected. A teki acting like an ancient samurai? It shocked them into immobility.

Suddenly a Thunderbolt broke from the Kurita ranks, pounding out to within a kilometer of the Dragoon Victor. The comm channel reverberated with the pilot's response to the Dragoon.

“Villain. I am Tadashi Bolivar, a mere Chu-i in the grand forces of the Draconis Combine. I am not so old and decrepit as you, but I am a fifth-generation samurai of House Kurita and have slain three Davion MechWarriors single-handedly. I accept your challenge. Pray to any gods you hold dear, teki, and prepare to die by my hand."

The DC is based on bushido & the samurai way. They are the most honorable group of all the GHs. (On a personal note, were I not such a fan of the Clans, I would definitely be a DC buso-senshi.) That being said they viewed mercenaries as the lowest of the low, yet here they are accepting challenges to duel from the Dragoons. Why? Because honor demanded it. It was as simple as that.

Now the Clans knew very well all the SSs were not like the DC but they are called SSs & GHs for a reason. They are a civilized & organized entity. They would not expect them to fight like bandits.

Sadistic Savior, on 01 February 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

It may not always be more EFFECTIVE for certain things, but it is always more just.

Ashla Mason, on 01 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

If government is incapable of serving the people due to internal paralysis then what is the value of government?

Ashla speaks to the matter itself. Think of how the people would be contemplating how just their government was when they are in a re-education camp. Look at how clumsy & ineffectual the FFR was:



Clan Wolf Sourcebook - Pg.32

guardian wolf, on 01 February 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Jaroth is correct on all counts. You have to think like a strategist. The IS has a strategically disadvantage, that was mitigated by the writers making it possible for them to win. In any war game simulation, of which I could probably set up, the Clans would literally crush the enemy beneath them. Even in a long drawn out campaign against the might of the IS as a whole, the Clans would win, due to a number of factors. These include: better quality mechs, higher quality standard pilots, better supply lines, more ships of war, better ships of war, etc. etc. I literally could list about thirty things that the Clans had going for them, all advantages. The IS had tactics, and numbers when we only account for the Clans that actually invaded and were successful (Jade Falcon, Smoke Jaguar, Ghost Bear, and my personal favorite, Wolf). Granted, that's why I liked the stories of the Clan Invasion, because of the fact that all the odds were against the IS, but, little by little, the tide turned to their favor, especially as the Wardens began doing what they could to help them. I personally am of the Wolf Warden philosophy, so I probably belong with the rest of the Wolves in Exile. Jaroth and I do not agree on many things, but on this, he has my support and concurrence.

Gratitude for your support, trothkin. Join the Crusaders. We have cookies! (chocolate chip, oatmeal raisin, gingersnaps, double chocolate, you name it we have it.)

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 01 February 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Ashla Mason]

Skylarr, on 01 February 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

The Clanners were battle hardened warriors in very advance machines of war. Fighting against green warriors in Mechs many generations old.

I fail to see the honor in these battles.

Which is why the clans were willing to bid away large segments of troops and/or specific weapons from there mechs to even up the odds; during 3050 they consistently fought odds of 2:1.

[Thorn Hallis]

The rules of Battletech allready set green, regular and veteran Clan warriors as superior to their respective counterparts in the IS in terms of piloting and gunnery. But a batlle isn't all about running and gunning.

[Ashla Mason]

Thorn Hallis, on 01 February 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

The rules of Battletech allready set green, regular and veteran Clan warriors as superior to their respective counterparts in the IS in terms of piloting and gunnery. But a batlle isn't all about running and gunning.

While it isn't nessecary to go over the details, wolcott showed that the clans supperior tech and skill could be mitigated by clever bidding and good use of terrain.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Ah terrain another important point.



Clan Wolf Sourcebook - Pg.38

You see how the lore was written? I mean come on, the evidence is right there in front of you.

Wait was that ANOTHER source quote referencing the superiority of the Clans?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 01 February 2013 - 11:17 AM.