29 replies to this topic

[Rebas Kradd]

I don't want boating to go away. It's a legitimate mini-game within the game. Boating makes you a specialist (shouldn't the game have specialists?) at the cost of making you incredibly vulnerable in other ways (e.g. forcing you to carry an XL engine, making you impotent at short range, etc.). This is a GOOD feature for the game to have and I don't want it dumbed down.

This still leaves us stuck with high-alpha energy/ballistic boaters that can core mechs in one or two shots at any range. I agree with most that the benefits of that outweigh the vulnerabilities as of now.

HOWEVER, completely revamping the heat/convergence system is probably not a good solution. The entire game is based on those things, and changing them now would throw everything out of whack, open up a whole plethora of new tuning requirements, and probably just delay launch further. Any solution that requires a foundational change is probably not best, especially if you could solve the problem in less disruptive ways.

Here are the gradual changes that might shift energy boaters back to where they should be:

1. Incentivize playing lights and mediums. It's often said that high-alpha pinpoint snipers are discouraging people from playing more easily-cored mechs. I wonder if it's the other way around - that the prevalence of bigger, easier-to-hit mechs is encouraging alpha builders. Would a 6 PPC Stalker do well against a team dominated by harder to hit mechs? He'd probably dump it for something else eventually unless he were either good at it or emotionally attached to it, which is exactly how it should be. Increasing the popularity of lights and mediums would also bring other forms of boaters (i.e. ballistic or missile) back into line a bit.

2. Overheating penalties. This is something that needs to happen ANYWAY, and the only mechs it would seriously punish are those that need to be punished most, the high-alpha energy lamers. They should start losing components when their heat goes over 90% and increase the chance of losing them from there.

3. Nerf PPC heat slightly. IIRC, it was only buffed in the first place to compensate for something else.

4. EXAMINE THE METAGAME to see if steps 1 through 3 have ameliorated the problem. If not...

5. Accuracy penalties, PPC splash damage, or randomness mechanics. I don't like these options, for reasons that have been frequently discussed, and I think they should be near the bottom.

6. EXAMINE THE GAME ONE MORE TIME. If tweaking is still needed...

7. Revamp the heat and convergence systems. These are sweeping and potentially massively disruptive changes and should be a last resort. Complain all you want about broken fundamentals, you highly principled TT veterans, but we are where we are and should not set the game back six months if we can fix our issues with simpler tweaks. My opinion is that steps 1-3 might just do it.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 07 June 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[FrDrake]

I would start with more harsh overheating penalties and see where it goes from there.

Make it so that even if you auto shut down, if you are over 105 or 110% heat you are taking internal damage.

If that doesn't keep the PPCers chaing firing (thus negating their alpha ability) then I don't know what will. Make the double edged sword actually have a blade on the other side.

[Swords to Plowshares]

PPC damage has always been 10. It was heat that was changed, in the same round of adjustments when heat for all energy weapons underwent revision.

I'm not a fan of all these calls for PPC adjustment. It will only end up hurting all of the other mechs that use them, just to deal with one or two particular Stalker configurations. No one is complaining about AWS-8Qs, after all.

[Livewyr]

1: No, PPC stalkers love lighter mechs, especially mediums. (Their roles should be incentivized, but that is another topic.)
2: Agree with concept, have raised before.
3: I don't think PPC damage has been touched, only the heat (which SHOULD go back up) and the speed (which I care little about.)


- - - 5 - 7 or moot points.

[Gaan Cathal]

Lower heat capacity, increase heat dissipation and more things get fixed than just alphasmack builds.

[Zyllos]

I am sorry, but 5 and 7 are the only ways to truely balance pin point damage.

All other balances will either shift them to other weapons (triple AC/5s, double Gauss, 5X Large Lasers, or 6X SRM/6s) or only make certain builds just fire less often, but still able to place all damage onto a single point.

If ANY type of build can be made to focus all weapons into a single point, then players will utilize that build. It's simple to control fire, allow for torso twisting (this is HUGE reason why people utilize boats), and allows players to control their damage onto a single location instead over multiple locations.

The other suggestions, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6, are also problems within themselves, but for other reasons.

I honestly think it will take a large undertaking from PGI, and a willingness for PGI to spend a lot of time in revamping systems to get them balanced, before people will begin to feel things are balanced.

[keith]

all PGI is a decent MM that puts some many assaults in first, then heavy rest is filled with lights and mediums. only do that for random 8v8, and if group 8v8 your fault for not taking a team syngerised build.

[mike29tw]

Not so keen on your first solution because I have been cored, and have cored, countless lights with PPCs in one shot. Let's be honest here, aiming in this game is not difficult at all, there's really no "hard to hit" mech here, other than maybe a really, really skilled spider. The rest of mediums and lights? Not a chance in front of an average PPC boat.

I pretty much all agree with rest of your list. Heat penalty is non-existence in this game and should be brought back to keep heavy energy boat in check. Convergence should definitely be the last means to balance the game.

[Gaan Cathal]

mike29tw, on 07 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Not so keen on your first solution because I have been cored, and have cored, countless lights with PPCs in one shot. Let's be honest here, aiming in this game is not difficult at all, there's really no "hard to hit" mech here, other than maybe a really, really skilled spider. The rest of mediums and lights? Not a chance in front of an average PPC boat.

This. You need to be a significantly better light pilot than an alpha sniper is sniper pilot to consistently avoid getting hit in the current setup.

[Rebas Kradd]

Zyllos, on 07 June 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I am sorry, but 5 and 7 are the only ways to truely balance pin point damage.

Yeah, well, that's probably not going to happen. They'd be setting the game back months from having to retune everything to the new system. I'm pretty sure it would also eliminate sniping completely from the game, and that's probably not something we want. The best course of action now, IMO, is simply to require pinpointers to pay a much higher price to do what they want to do.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 07 June 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not opposed to boating or specialization. I think it would be a pretty realistic thing to do if Battletech was even remotely realistic...

But, ther eare certain game based advantages that "boats" enjoy that other builds don't enjoy. And that is not just a think that affects specialization.

A boat that uses 4 PPCs is specialized at medium to long ranges.
A mech that uses 2 PPCs and 2 AC/10 is specialized at medium to long ranges.

But the first mech would b better than the second, simply because if you can fire all your weapons together, you have an advantage. THe AC/10 + PPC mech cannot fire both weapons together without either outright missing with one, or at least not hitting the same hit locations. But evne if he splits his shots into two AC/10 and 2 PPC shots, he still suffers from needing to to spend more time on aiming and more time looking in the direction he is shooting. He cannot torso twist.

Slowing down convergence would still benefit the boat.
Removing convergence would force everyone to fire each weapon individually. But it might be asking a bit too much from players if they have to fire all weapons separetely in their short cycle times (or waste firepower). I don't know.

Lowering the heat capacity can limit many (but not all) "alpha boats". Anything relying on heat intensive weapons at least suffers drawbacks. Maybe that is actually sufficient. 3 PPCs deal 30 damage for the price of 21 tons and 9 crits and a lot of heat. 2 Gauss Rifles deal 30 damage for 30 tons and 14 crits. SUre, the Gauss Rifles will be able to fire a lot longer before it overheats, but the goal of the game is not to see who can shoot the longest, but who dies first - and you need to deal only 60 to 180 damage to one mech to kill him, so it's more a question - who can manage to inflict that damage before he's spent? And then the PPCs (or Large Lasers, or Medium Lasers) suddenly don't look so bad anymore... You can choose to go very hot and cool off over the wreck of your far more heat efficient (but dead) enemies.

Gaan Cathal, on 07 June 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

This. You need to be a significantly better light pilot than an alpha sniper is sniper pilot to consistently avoid getting hit in the current setup.

Fundamentally, the Sniper needs to get lucky only once...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 June 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Recently, I've been thinking that maybe PPCs and Ballistics should function differently, according to the Mech the weapon is mounted on.

Keep PPCs on the AWS-8Q or ERPPCs on the AWS-9M then they fire as a projectile. Put them on any other Energy Hardpoint then they act like long range Pulse Lasers.

Keep that AC20 on the Yen Lo Wang or HBk-4G then it still fires as one big projectile. Stick one in the HBK-4H or two into the Jagers, then it fires multiple projectiles at reduced damage per projectile per trigger pull.

This can help keep mechs unique, without getting outclassed by other variants, and also since Jagers are described as Anti-Air Support in the Lore anyway so a hail of projectiles seem reasonable to me for them.

The same for Gauss, mount them in Jagers and each trigger pull fires multiple projectiles that do less damage each. Stick that Gauss on the Atlas then it stays as we have them, one shot per trigger pull.



I figure that this way boats can still be fielded, and we can also have more variety in builds with more viable variants.



It wasn't brought up, but also introducing a better control on LRM volleys, (plus having AMS only take out a % of said volleys) so that smaller LRM volleys can be viable when not boated is needed so that more builds can work without needing to boat LRMs or not.

[mike29tw]

Praetor Shepard, on 07 June 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Recently, I've been thinking that maybe PPCs and Ballistics should function differently, according to the Mech the weapon is mounted on.

Keep PPCs on the AWS-8Q or ERPPCs on the AWS-9M then they fire as a projectile. Put them on any other Energy Hardpoint then they act like long range Pulse Lasers.

Keep that AC20 on the Yen Lo Wang or HBk-4G then it still fires as one big projectile. Stick one in the HBK-4H or two into the Jagers, then it fires multiple projectiles at reduced damage per projectile per trigger pull.

This can help keep mechs unique, without getting outclassed by other variants, and also since Jagers are described as Anti-Air Support in the Lore anyway so a hail of projectiles seem reasonable to me for them.

The same for Gauss, mount them in Jagers and each trigger pull fires multiple projectiles that do less damage each. Stick that Gauss on the Atlas then it stays as we have them, one shot per trigger pull.



I figure that this way boats can still be fielded, and we can also have more variety in builds with more viable variants.



It wasn't brought up, but also introducing a better control on LRM volleys, (plus having AMS only take out a % of said volleys) so that smaller LRM volleys can be viable when not boated is needed so that more builds can work without needing to boat LRMs or not.

Inconsistency in weapon system is bad bad bad. It makes no sense in any shape way or form.

[FunkyFritter]

You bring up a good point in that the lack of mech diversity does contribute to the power of boating, lack of versatility isn't as big a deal when 80%+ of the threatening opponents you'll encounter are in heavier mechs.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

mike29tw, on 07 June 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Inconsistency in weapon system is bad bad bad. It makes no sense in any shape way or form.

In the lore, weapons are manufactured by different Companies and are described to function differently. If anything there would need to be new labels to weapons if we would have greater diversity.

So for example, some mechs would be able to mount the "Ceres Arms Smasher" PPC or the "Starcutter" PPC with the different fire functions for each.

The same for example with the "Scarborough Original 20" AC20 with its specific stats, while other Mechs would have access to the "Kali Yama Big Bore" AC20.

Why couldn't something like that work?

[Johnny Reb]

My biggest problem with heat penalties for boating is it has the potential to kill mechs designed just for that purpose, primarily looking at the HBK-P, JR7-F, CDA-2A, BJ-1X and other mainly heavy energy mechs. (especially light and medium ones)

[FunkyFritter]

Praetor Shepard, on 07 June 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

In the lore, weapons are manufactured by different Companies and are described to function differently. If anything there would need to be new labels to weapons if we would have greater diversity.

So for example, some mechs would be able to mount the "Ceres Arms Smasher" PPC or the "Starcutter" PPC with the different fire functions for each.

The same for example with the "Scarborough Original 20" AC20 with its specific stats, while other Mechs would have access to the "Kali Yama Big Bore" AC20.

Why couldn't something like that work?

Because it would exponentially increase the game's complexity without adding any interesting gameplay considerations. People would still test out all the weapons, find the most efficient and run with whatever mech can mount the most of them. At the end of the day the only way to promote more diversity is to minimize the gap between the optimal setups and the decent ones, specific mechs or loadouts are not the problem.

[Sprouticus]

I am actually a fan of the idea of a heat penalty for multiple weapons shot at the same time.

1x weapon = normal heat
2x weapon = normal heat + 5%
3x weapon = normal heat + 15%
4x weapon or more = normal heat + 25%

Or something like that.

The issue is not PPC damage, it is 4 PPC's all hitting the same panel. Sure you could put randomization in as a factor, but that's an unpopular idea (although I personally would be ok with it).

But a heat penalty is sort of like a screen shake in my mind. It makes pinpoint accuracy harder because you have to take 2 shots (or suffer the consequences).

3 PPC stalkers and 3 PPC 1 gauss highlanders will still be around.

Foolish pilots will still alpha with them. But if they do it will end up costing them DPS in the long run.
Good pilots will fire maybe 1 or 2 at a time, cycling through their weapons. Unfortunately this will result in more weapons spread.
The really good pilots will do the same as the good ones, but they will be able to place their shots in the same panel. For them there is minimal difference between firing 2 quick shots or one big alpha.

[BlackWidow]

This does not have to be complicated.

Fix heat dissipation to be that of TT values X3 (since we fire approx 3 times more in game)

Implement the heat penalties from TT.

Everything else gameplay wise would balance out and MIN-MAXING would fall in line a bit.

[Sprouticus]

Johnny Reb, on 07 June 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

My biggest problem with heat penalties for boating is it has the potential to kill mechs designed just for that purpose, primarily looking at the HBK-P, JR7-F, CDA-2A, BJ-1X and other mainly heavy energy mechs. (especially light and medium ones)

The heat penalties for alphas will penalize alpha shots, not boating. Or at least it would if it were done well. I admit tuning it might be tough.

The thing is that boats dont HAVE to alpha. You can split up 4 PPC's into 2 groups of 2 and still get good functionality. or 6 medium lasers into 2 groups of 3 (or 3 groups of 2)

BUT, if you are going to have to split your 4 PPC's into two groups because you dont want to overheat, then you have to ask yourself if a different weapon (maybe 2 AC10's) might not be a better option. And that is a good thing.

Obviously on a boat mech that is not an option. But more general purpose mechs now have a reason to be used.



heat penalties would also be great as well. I have never understood why PGI has not implemented them. Heat as a resource is an all or nothing thing in MWO. And frankly that is boring.

Even adding simple things like slowing a mech down when it is above 75% heat or making the speed of torso twist and turning slower reduce with heat would make the game feel very different.

Adding reticule shake based on heat would be great as well, but I think there would be riots because of it.

Edited by Sprouticus, 07 June 2013 - 11:57 AM.