12 replies to this topic

[Asmudius Heng]

NOTE: I am NOT hating on boating in this thread, it has its place and is absolutely fine as long as it is balanced.

This is something that has been discussed a lot before but I though might be a good point to look at again since this update form Paul Inouye's weapons balance thread:

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UPDATE (Nov 26,2012):

Just so you guys know, I'm not looking into nerfing damage or operation right now. This nerf should not directly affect people using 1 or 2 launchers. We are trying to look into ways of reducing efficiency when you try to boat these systems. We are still discussing the implications of some planned routes and again, I'll let you know what we start to move forward with.

Someone else made a thread that referenced solaris rules that made lock on or reload times worse if you boated SSRMs which might be a reference to what Paul is saying here, but it brings up a large question about the efficiency of boating.

Right now, the most effective builds are boats - this is because in general, it is a very efficient tactics because:

• You only need to fight at your optimal range so you keep your mind focused on one that task
  
• You do not need to juggle weapons ranges, firing rates, and different targeting methods - this is a huge advantage.
  
• You can build your mech to largely get around the disadvantages that boating certain weapons have so there is little downside.
  
• This was balanced in TT because each weapon had a separate to hit roll and would scatter damage over a mech not all hit the one spot. (This meant that they were not as efficient in TT except to your movement to be in the desired range)

Boats are efficient killers, but some weapons systems are more boatable than others, and some are simply more used than others. Obviously PPC boats are rare because PPCs are not competitive. Lets look at a few others:


SSRMs - This is the current flavour of the month to ***** about and use.
Pros

• Always hits
  
• Locks are pretty easy to get
  
• Lots of ammo
  
• Decent damage
  
• Quite light

Cons

• Very short range
  
• Only come in a 2 pack
  
• Explosive ammo

Now a brawler who is pretty fast and has CASE and has a decent amount of missile hardpoints gets around all these issues. This is obviously a catapult issue as well, but later thee will be other missile mechs abusing it as well.


The ease of use makes this efficient and the only massive downside you cannot get around is range. However, i have never heard anyone say "Damn i got killed before i could get in range", it doesn’t happen in MWO very often at all.

What about medlas?

Medlas
Pros

• Easy to hit with
  
• No ammo
  
• Not bad damage for weight ratio
  
• Very light and boatable on many builds

Cons

• A little bit hot
  
• Not great range (though not terrible as you can sacrifice damage for range)

This should be the most common weapon as it is in BT. That is fine. However, a single medlas is laughable so people are forced to boat them for some effectiveness - however if you are going to do that, you may as well boat them big for maximum efficiency and make sure you have the double heat sinks to handle it.


Now you have the swayback type build, or the jenner. This is no way near as bad as it used to be back in the day - and medlas is still a decent secondary armament. However boated it becomes extremely deadly - they had to nerf double heat sinks because of this fact and they admitted it.

Was this a problem with DHS, or with boating?

---

Perhaps you see my point. There is little incentive to take mixed builds still, because you sacrifice a huge amount of efficiency to have something that fights at multiple ranges and I am not convinced that this is ever a good trade off.

So what is to be done??

Many will disagree with me and think things are fine, i will admit its a lot better than before, but we still will always have the trade off of efficiency of use with highly specialised builds compared to the swiss army knife build. The issue is thee is VERY little downside to boating, i feel very comfortable in all boats apart from an LRM boat ... why?

LRMs have a significant downside that can be used to counter them. Minimum range. They also are not the be all end all after their nerf, are ammo dependant, pretty heavy, enough heat to be considerable and so forth.

LRMs can also be used in a single pack as a support mechanism to hit people while holding formation behind cover - i think they are pretty balanced as they get mashed on when a brawl comes.

SSRMs have no such disadvantage because it is much easier to get into range than to try to stay out of a minimum range. Same with MedLas. Gauss have no min range.

The popular boatable weapons do not have any great disadvantage to boating them, there is no real counter and they are easy to use. How do you nerf the boating without making the singular use of such weapons a joke?

Make boating weapons slightly disadvantageous.

Some ideas that might or might not work, just ideas that have already been discussed at PGI that shows they are thinking of these things:

• SRMs with longer lock on times in groups (LRMs the same maybe?)
  
• Multiple weapons in a section causing greater heat when fired together (A medlas nerf for boater that would not hurt singulars - same with lighter ACs)
  
• Gauss causing greater heat build-up when fired together, or perhaps cause hud disruption as there is so much electrical feedback

Now not every weapon needs this, but the way hardpoints work in this game some builds simply get a free ride and it might be important to be able to keep this in check without the constant balancing of keeping singular weapons viable without overpowering them in groups.


I boat as well many times, but I LIKE knowing that my boat comes with some significant drawbacks and often i find i rip out secondary weapons systems to add more ammo or heat sinks because quite rankly the sustained fire of the boating main weapons is FAR more powerful than needing a secondary weapon .... this seems to be problematic to me.

Anyway - discuss.

Edited by Asmudius Heng, 26 November 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[Moonsavage]

I can imagine a Cat K2 firing twin Gauss cannons and flopping over onto it's back from the recoil... except there is no RL to prove the point.

[Asmudius Heng]

Moonsavage, on 26 November 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

I can imagine a Cat K2 firing twin Gauss cannons and flopping over onto it's back from the recoil... except there is no RL to prove the point.

I will not be drawn into a Gausscat argument!

The issue with gauss might be more about its efficiency as a brawler and not having a minimum range rather than the boating of said weapon. I was going to make reference to guass but i think that is mroe the weapons system itself rather than the boating of such weapons system - the catapult is actually an argument all of its own lol

[Kavoh]

Problem is, so many weapons were designed for other objectives. Like anti-infantry or anti-aircraft weaponry. Not everything was made for mech warfare, so until we have npc vehicles/infantry/aircraft buzzing around, some weapons just wont be worth it, and you wont need to put 1 or 2 on your mech to deal with them. Therefore, we boat.

[Asmudius Heng]

Kavoh, on 26 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Problem is, so many weapons were designed for other objectives. Like anti-infantry or anti-aircraft weaponry. Not everything was made for mech warfare, so until we have npc vehicles/infantry/aircraft buzzing around, some weapons just wont be worth it, and you wont need to put 1 or 2 on your mech to deal with them. Therefore, we boat.

I certainly agree.

However I think they need to bite the bullet and say if there are no objectives these weapons are needed for then they should be changed to fit with the mech on mech warfare that is MWO.

they are talking about buffing machine gun damage for instance and flamers so obviously they realise havign useless weapons in the game is not very good. Thoguh they could have different roles such as being better at eating up internals for machine guns for instance ... but that is beside the point of this thread. SSRMs and Medlas as an example are prime mech killing weapons which is why i focused on them as examples - though small lasers certainly might also fit.

[shabowie]

Asmudius Heng, on 26 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

...boated it becomes extremely deadly - they had to nerf double heat sinks because of this fact and they admitted it.

Was this a problem with DHS, or with boating?

Neither. The whole core an Atlas from behind in 3 seconds story was an exaggeration and most people know that.

Many designs are medium laser boats from the outset and require 4-9 medium lasers to be efficient in order to be effective. Like the Jenner and Laserback.

I'm not seeing a problem with medium laser "boats" dominating the game right now. I do see it as a problem that the heavier energy weapons aren't as efficient and effective for the heavier mechs though. Universal DHS at 2.0 would increase Large Laser/PPC and especially ER and Pulse use while only slightly increasing the power of boated small and medium lasers.

If super high Alpha damage then becomes an issue they need to look at flattening the capacity to store waste heat. Heat dissipation should have been faster from the beginning for SHS, doubled for DHS, and the capacity for heat should not go up by 1 or 2 for every SHS and DHS but stay around 30. Heat going up from firing weapons should have been over time and carrying waste heat should have something resembling canon outcomes. Reduced speed and turning ability, accuracy penalties (shots diverge from reticle, missile spreads and lock on times increase), chances of ammo explosion or critical system failure, increasing in chance the hotter you get.

PS. Paul didn't mention lasers in his weapons balancing command chair post, so apparently their data makes them think laser balance is looking good right now. Streaks being OP and PPC UP matches my perception of the state of things and are both mentioned.

Edited by shabowie, 26 November 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am still not a fan of penalizing boating. I think the main problem of all boating is that it just magnifies the overpoweredness of an overpowered weapon. If one weapon in your arsenal of 6 is 50 % better, that's just a 6.66 % improvement to the next mech build that doesn't use the OP weapon. But if you're in a boat with 6 of those 50 % better weapons, your mech is 50 % better than the next mech build that doesn't use the OP weapon. And of course that shows, every Atlas being allowed to bring an extra Hunchback or every Hunchback being allowed to field an extra Commando would be a bit OP, wouldn't it?



But okay, let's say we don't have an imbalanced weapon but still find that boating guns is too good, because of convergence, identical range and what not.

Then I really hope they find a solution that works for all weapons, and not just Streak Boats, because sure as hell the next boat will come around.
So the effect:
1) Can't have anything to do with the lock mechanics. Most weapons don't need a lock.
2) Can't have anything to do with heat. Some weapons deliver so little heat that you don't care if you increase it a bit, others become unusuable because they have a lot of heat (AC/5 vs LL, to give an example.)

I hope they go for something that affects rate of fire. That's a concern for all weapons. Have weapons that are fired together (or in close succession of each other) add a small percentage to their recycle rate.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 26 November 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[Brilig]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 November 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

I hope they go for something that affects rate of fire. That's a concern for all weapons. Have weapons that are fired together (or in close succession of each other) add a small percentage to their recycle rate.

Love this idea. And firing more than 2 of the same weapon within a certain amount of time causes recycle to go up. That keeps chain fire from being an easy work around. Increase to lock on time, and additional heat to several weapons fire at once from the same section are good ideas as well. But the above does work well across the board.

Edited by Brilig, 27 November 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[Ax2Grind]

I'm sorry but I don't have a problem with anyone boating, and I don't think they dominate the game. LRM boats, SRM boats, Laser Boats, I always look forward to figuring a way to kill them all, and I do so. Boats will always be the most focused and efficient mech designs for a single purpose...that's efficiency, not a flaw. A weapon boat will always suffer from its unique weaknesses though.

I haven't boated a single weapon since mid august. And I get killed by boats as often as non-boats, and kill plenty of them. I like versatility. Others like one function. I often think wistfully of my old awesome laser boat and may one day bring that brawler back to life, but he had some glaring weaknesses let me tell you. And LRM boats? Just get a scout on them. SSRM boats are a bit more deadly but even they can be killed as easily as gaussapults once identified on the battle field.

Recently SSRM's got a boost...and now they seem a little OP to some. Fine, lets reel them in just a bit. But stop letting people boat? I don't see the point.

As new maps come out, or as the game evolves to larger teams, the need for focused mech builds will only increase for a team, not decrease. Those of us who like to be flexible and carry an assortment will still have a place if we are good at it, but in role warfare, things tend to go the other way...specialized builds for specific purposes. Maybe in the Dropship game they have planned you'll need to have more generalized builds but I doubt it.

Great post by the way OP, I just disagree from my own experience in game.

[Dremster]

Ax2Grind, on 27 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I don't have a problem with anyone boating, and I don't think they dominate the game. LRM boats, SRM boats, Laser Boats, I always look forward to figuring a way to kill them all, and I do so. Boats will always be the most focused and efficient mech designs for a single purpose...that's efficiency, not a flaw. A weapon boat will always suffer from its unique weaknesses though.

I haven't boated a single weapon since mid august. And I get killed by boats as often as non-boats, and kill plenty of them. I like versatility. Others like one function. I often think wistfully of my old awesome laser boat and may one day bring that brawler back to life, but he had some glaring weaknesses let me tell you. And LRM boats? Just get a scout on them. SSRM boats are a bit more deadly but even they can be killed as easily as gaussapults once identified on the battle field.

Recently SSRM's got a boost...and now they seem a little OP to some. Fine, lets reel them in just a bit. But stop letting people boat? I don't see the point.

As new maps come out, or as the game evolves to larger teams, the need for focused mech builds will only increase for a team, not decrease. Those of us who like to be flexible and carry an assortment will still have a place if we are good at it, but in role warfare, things tend to go the other way...specialized builds for specific purposes. Maybe in the Dropship game they have planned you'll need to have more generalized builds but I doubt it.

Great post by the way OP, I just disagree from my own experience in game.

I agree with this. I haven't run into or piloted any boat mechs that felt OP most of my mechs contain a mix of weapon types. Even the streak cat can be dealt with if you have friendly mechs to help, a zen like ability to aim through the shaking, or you engage outside their range. laser boats run hot and are a lot less deadly when you twist and spread the damage.

[Chrithu]

TL;DRE. Just read about half of the OP. Just wanted to drop in, that boats are generally easier to take out (if found) than more versatile builds. Stay out of their max range or get under their min range and you will leave behind one very pissed off dude.

[Asmudius Heng]

thanks oen and all for the discussion. As I hope i mentioned I am not makign demands or saying this is even the way to go, but putting forth a theory and looking to have a discussion around it

Ax2Grind, on 27 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I don't have a problem with anyone boating, and I don't think they dominate the game. LRM boats, SRM boats, Laser Boats, I always look forward to figuring a way to kill them all, and I do so. Boats will always be the most focused and efficient mech designs for a single purpose...that's efficiency, not a flaw. A weapon boat will always suffer from its unique weaknesses though.

I agree except that I think that some weapons do not have enough of a unique weakness to really count. Or that weakness is easily spotted and remedies by a good mech build. As i mentioned, LRMs are quite balanced and have significant drawbacks as well as significant advantages which I think some other weapons do not. In ithe case, the efficiceny of aiming is high on the list of intrinsive positives with boat builds.

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Great post by the way OP, I just disagree from my own experience in game.

Thank you! And thank you for your contribution.

MustrumRidcully, on 26 November 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

I am still not a fan of penalizing boating. I think the main problem of all boating is that it just magnifies the overpoweredness of an overpowered weapon. If one weapon in your arsenal of 6 is 50 % better, that's just a 6.66 % improvement to the next mech build that doesn't use the OP weapon. But if you're in a boat with 6 of those 50 % better weapons, your mech is 50 % better than the next mech build that doesn't use the OP weapon. And of course that shows, every Atlas being allowed to bring an extra Hunchback or every Hunchback being allowed to field an extra Commando would be a bit OP, wouldn't it?

I greatly rspect your opinions from your other threads Mustrum, however I still believe that the issue is some weapons in singles or doubles are not fantastic but when stacked become perhaps too powerful. An OP weapon that is also stacked amplifies it certainly, but that is a topci more for individual weapons that are seen as OP even in singles.

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But okay, let's say we don't have an imbalanced weapon but still find that boating guns is too good, because of convergence, identical range and what not.

Then I really hope they find a solution that works for all weapons, and not just Streak Boats, because sure as hell the next boat will come around.
So the effect:
1) Can't have anything to do with the lock mechanics. Most weapons don't need a lock.
2) Can't have anything to do with heat. Some weapons deliver so little heat that you don't care if you increase it a bit, others become unusuable because they have a lot of heat (AC/5 vs LL, to give an example.)

I hope they go for something that affects rate of fire. That's a concern for all weapons. Have weapons that are fired together (or in close succession of each other) add a small percentage to their recycle rate.

That is also certainly acceptable. Not a backer of any particular measure to combat this issue, but the Developers are looking at ways and have been for some time so they know it is an issue. Whatever works and effecting the recycle rate is fine by me too ... thoguhi think time to lock on and lose lock could be fine if done well but its hard to know the outcome.

shabowie, on 26 November 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Neither. The whole core an Atlas from behind in 3 seconds story was an exaggeration and most people know that.

Speculation at best I think. Though i think we know that if you made heat more forgiving some high heat but high damage builds would benefit greatly. Even a small tipping point can make a build very powerful ... single change of 0.1 damage for instance can make or break what people will consider effective and boating compounds this. I think full DHS could have made some energy based builds better enough to be seen as the best most optimum config in their testing arena - but that is speculation on my half - we simply cannot prove or disprove this.

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Many designs are medium laser boats from the outset and require 4-9 medium lasers to be efficient in order to be effective. Like the Jenner and Laserback.

This is the issue i am getting at - that taking just a single of some weapons seems like a waste so people boat them. If a single or duo of a medlas felt satisfying they would be broken on a swayback. This is the dilema when looking at making singlualr weapons systems workable and satisfying without making the boating configs too overpowered.

When people feel forced to boat you wonder why they are not using more versatile weapons loadouts .... because they are less efficient and have too many downside in comparison.

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I'm not seeing a problem with medium laser "boats" dominating the game right now. I do see it as a problem that the heavier energy weapons aren't as efficient and effective for the heavier mechs though. Universal DHS at 2.0 would increase Large Laser/PPC and especially ER and Pulse use while only slightly increasing the power of boated small and medium lasers.

I also agree, large energy weapons are sub-par right now. It is all pat of a larger question on balance certainly. I want insinuating that med las boats are the be all end all either, though they are still quite powerful - btu i dont see many individual medlas user either.

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If super high Alpha damage then becomes an issue they need to look at flattening the capacity to store waste heat. Heat dissipation should have been faster from the beginning for SHS, doubled for DHS, and the capacity for heat should not go up by 1 or 2 for every SHS and DHS but stay around 30. Heat going up from firing weapons should have been over time and carrying waste heat should have something resembling canon outcomes. Reduced speed and turning ability, accuracy penalties (shots diverge from reticle, missile spreads and lock on times increase), chances of ammo explosion or critical system failure, increasing in chance the hotter you get.

I agree again! I am with you on this that the way heat works and effects your mech is not how it should be. Penalties at high heat should be there and the whole way ehat works does not 'do it' for me. However I am resigned to beliving they will not fix this so am just looking at boatign in this thread and its impact is all - so that is a little bit off to the side

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PS. Paul didn't mention lasers in his weapons balancing command chair post, so apparently their data makes them think laser balance is looking good right now. Streaks being OP and PPC UP matches my perception of the state of things and are both mentioned.

Possibly. I didnt say medlas were the bee all end all, just used them as an example in between LRMs and SSRMs for the sake of argument and that it is a boatable weapon.

Jason Parker, on 27 November 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

TL;DRE. Just read about half of the OP. Just wanted to drop in, that boats are generally easier to take out (if found) than more versatile builds. Stay out of their max range or get under their min range and you will leave behind one very pissed off dude.

Only PPCs and LRMs have a minimum range. PPCs are sub par and need buffing we all agree. I already mentioned LRMs have a distinct disadvantage are are the best of the boatable wepaons balance wise ...

Staying out of a charging fast Jump Jetting streak cats range is easier said than done. They know the inherent range disadvantage and make sure thier mech compensates.

Also, ahyone can also just say from teh other side ... use cover and get to your SSRM range without being hit. Assuming boaters are fools and you are a tactical genius is not a way to talk about balance when you must consider all skills being roughly equal - and then looking at the reality of the sitation.

However you didnt read my post so i guess i cannot expct a logical argument ....

[MustrumRidcully]

Jason Parker, on 27 November 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

TL;DRE. Just read about half of the OP. Just wanted to drop in, that boats are generally easier to take out (if found) than more versatile builds. Stay out of their max range or get under their min range and you will leave behind one very pissed off dude.

If the mech has no ability to get back into his effective range, and if the weapon has a minimum range, and if you actually have a mech that can operate within that range bracket.

A Streakapult doesn't to spend much weight on his weapon, so they will usually run with very high rated engines. And that can make them fast enough to outrun most heavy and assault mechs. Most mediums aren't getting that fast normally either, and light mechs tend to not even have long range weaponry.

Minmaxing means to miniize your weakness (Streaks have a short range => Get a fast mech) and maximize your strengths (Streaks never miss, and each hit leads to smoke and cockpit shake that makes targeting more difficult => Chain Fire a lot of them).