19 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

from the updated ECM post

"We would also like to remind people that the ECM is not all powerful. The rock to its scissors is the TAG laser. If you use it to hit anyone cloaked by an ECM, you and your team will be able to target them. Like any new addition to the game, this just requires a shift in thinking how to equip your Mech and/or team."

I understand the theory here, and for 8 man groups or even 4 man groups I think it is an appropriate consideration.


But for solo players (dont understand why people play solo, but they do and we have to respect their choice) TAG is not an option as a counter to ECM.

No pug in their right mind is going to take an LRM boat hoping that a scout with TAG or ECM is willing (or good enough) to make their LRM's viable. It just wont happen.

This will mean premades will take them and pugs wont. And a premade with 1-2 TAG equipped mechs and/or ECCM mechs will have a big advantage (bigger) over a group without it because LRM's are a very good support option right now.

Im not saying you cant beat a team without LRM's. Far from it. But it does give group yet another advantage because they can be tactically more flexible.

On the other hand, a team of 4 with coordinated ECM/ECCM mechs will probably not need LRMs

[Orzorn]

As an aside, a Commando with 3 SSRM and 1 TAG is very dangerous.

If a player took that, they'd also be useful for getting past ECM, and they wouldn't have to rely on LRM users, either.

[Jeye]

ECM is way way more powerfull than Tag. I don't know how they can say it's an effective counter. How about countering the flickering to your mini map and the loss of visibility of your team mates as well as the enemy team. Holding your counter over an ememy mech so your team can see them is no way to make up for this.

I am excited about ECM but TAG is not powerfull and not used very often. I do not see TAG as a way to combat ECM, ECM is the only counter to ECM by the sounds of it.

ECM arms race anyone?

[Mercules]

Only certain mechs can take ECM... anyone with a spare Energy slot can take a TAG which is light weight and doesn't generate heat.

[Sprouticus]

Orzorn, on 28 November 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

As an aside, a Commando with 3 SSRM and 1 TAG is very dangerous.

If a player took that, they'd also be useful for getting past ECM, and they wouldn't have to rely on LRM users, either.

The TAG mech can still be nasty, TAG just allow other LRM boats to get locks. Preferably on the mech running ECM!

But the limited window for TAG to be functional (180m.450m from the ECM mech) is a big deal. If you put your big mechs behind a cicada screen 150m in front of the main group between the TAG mech and the gorup you can further impede the TAG mech, making the window of TAg oppurtunity less them 150m. HArd to get. Mind you keeping the cicada between the gorup and the TAG mech at exactly 150m without either losing the ECM bubble on your group or having the TAG mech go around you would be somewhat tough. And the Cicada itself would become a target. But it is possible to screen a large force if a large number of missile boats are on the other side. The theory is similar to a missile destoryer in naval tactics.

But lets be honest, none of this is going to play out in pug games.

As I said in another thread, Im more than willing to give it a chance, but I really think ECM will not be used as intended in non premade groups.

[malibu43]

The way I see it, ECM is more useful to a coordinated team, so you'll see coordinated teams using it more. It just so happens that it is best countered by a well coordinated team. And, starting next week, 8 man premades will only play against 8 man premades. So I would think it will drive 8 vs 8 premades to use more tactics.

An 8 player PUG only team won't be able to counter an ECM mech as effectively, but 1 guy on a PUG team running with ECM isn't bringing that much to the table given that he can't really communicate with the rest of hist team about where he is or who he's jamming. So maybe it won't have as big of an impact on PUGs.

Now, a 4 man group with ECM teamed up with 4 randoms against an 8 player pure PUG might be a little lopsided. But we'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

I can imagine it's difficult to keep things balanced for 2 very different play styles (PUG and Premade). Allow PUG teams to use the voice app and it would help a lot as well.

[Sprouticus]

Mercules, on 28 November 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Only certain mechs can take ECM... anyone with a spare Energy slot can take a TAG which is light weight and doesn't generate heat.

but the mech needs to stay outside of the ecm bubble (180m) to use it to spot for support mechs. Staying beyond 180 is VERY difficult on some maps. And frankly most pugs are not capable.

As a side note, I would love an on/off for tag. Holding down a button to use it is annoying as spit. Even mapping it to all your weapons is annoying.

Edit: Anbother side note. TAGing shoiuld give some rewards. So should countering ECM. If a mech is in counter mode and tagging to allow another mech to do dmg, they should be rewarded for team play.

Edited by Sprouticus, 28 November 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[Roughneck45]

Im not too worried about it, considering its only 4 mechs that can take it right now (none of which are too scary on their own), and it will not be affecting my direct fire or situational awarness lol.

We will have to wait and see though.

[Like a Sir]

I can see the C4 cat getting a lot more use now... Having 4 missle slots and the ability to equip your own tag + a laser of choice, suddenly doesn't seem like a terrible idea...

[Mercules]

So we might have to think and co-ordinate and maybe use tactics? You act like this might be a team game or something.

[Sprouticus]

Mercules, on 28 November 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

So we might have to think and co-ordinate and maybe use tactics? You act like this might be a team game or something.

Lots of us do that already. But the reality is that even a decent pug is severely limited in tactical functionality. Especially without the ability to coordinate builds.

[Mercules]

I still don't get your point. Do you intend to PUG the entire lifespan of this game? Do you intend to PUG when Community Warfare drops or do you think we might have some more coordination as to who we drop with for that?

[Karyudo ds]

Honestly I think the match making is part of the problem here. A team will take TAG to counter ECM but a random player has no one suggesting to them to do so beyond the spotting points and it's not a guarantee that they'll even get those. People might naturally move to these tactics, maybe. It seems though that the matchmaking might be better off weighting gear though somehow. Try and put units with teamwork based gear together and possibly put together units able to counter each other better.

Or...

Just do what any MMO does and give us an LFG system with possibly some preferences to pick up PuG players. Seems to work for them, if they need a tank, they get one and go (or wait till the end of time...but this is more flexible obviously).

[Kaijin]

malibu43, on 28 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

1 guy on a PUG team running with ECM isn't bringing that much to the table given that he can't really communicate with the rest of hist team about where he is or who he's jamming. So maybe it won't have as big of an impact on PUGs.

hit 'Y'
type: "Guys! I have ECM. If you all stay in the same general area, I'll keep you covered - just keep me alive and I'll keep you alive. I'm the Purple Commando. "

Easy Peasy

Edited by Kaijin, 28 November 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[Mercules]

Curionist, on 28 November 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

I see LRM boats with their own TAG, shooting the LRMs with TAG together. Does this actually work?

Yes.... and it means they can target something with ECM beyond the 200(230 with module?) meters if they can hit it with tag.

[Aquilus]

Sprouticus, on 28 November 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

Lots of us do that already. But the reality is that even a decent pug is severely limited in tactical functionality. Especially without the ability to coordinate builds.

So you're saying that a team-based tactical game such as this should be balanced to suit solo players who don't want to play as a team? No, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Imagine if other team-based games like DotA had the same balance philosophy, it simply wouldn't work as a competitive game. TAG is underused as it is, and this is a great incentive to encourage people to actually use it. It also promotes more refined tactics than the current "stick together and focus fire" optimal play.

[Kaijin]

Curionist, on 28 November 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

I see LRM boats with their own TAG, shooting the LRMs with TAG together. Does this actually work?

Yes it does, but typically not so well with very fast targets...like ECM-equipped Cicadas.

[Sprouticus]

Aquilus, on 28 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

So you're saying that a team-based tactical game such as this should be balanced to suit solo players who don't want to play as a team? No, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Imagine if other team-based games like DotA had the same balance philosophy, it simply wouldn't work as a competitive game. TAG is underused as it is, and this is a great incentive to encourage people to actually use it. It also promotes more refined tactics than the current "stick together and focus fire" optimal play.

No I am saying that 180-200m(for non tag mechs) or 180-450 (for tag mechs) is a weee bit to tight and that LRM's will be the pervue of groups, no pug will take them for fear of being useless.

The solution is fairly simple and does not break ECM. Make it 150m for the bubble and 300 or 400m to detect mech inside the bubble. ECM (and ECCM) are still pretty amazing at that range, and it allows TAg mechs to get as close as 150m and still tag a mech. It also allows pug LRM boats to stand off at 300-400m and still be able to trow missiles as support to an infighter.

I am not saying coddle the pugs, just take the facts of life into account


Optionally, get voice comms fully integrated or introduce a lobby. But those will both take a lot of time. Changing the bubble size and detect range is MUCH easier.

Edited by Sprouticus, 28 November 2012 - 02:31 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

We'll see how it plays when it gets here.

[malibu43]

Kaijin, on 28 November 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

hit 'Y' type: "Guys! I have ECM. If you all stay in the same general area, I'll keep you covered - just keep me alive and I'll keep you alive. I'm the Purple Commando. " Easy Peasy

Yeah. I know it can be done. Someone can also type "I have TAG. Help me get the guys with ECM". Those messages can be typed at the beginning of the match, but once the **** hits the fan further communication about location, status, targets, etc... is much harder for PUGs. As a result, I think the benefits of ECM (and TAG as anyone who's PUGGED as seen) won't be as great in a PUG.

My point was just that as long as PUGs and premades are separated after Dec 4th, ECM may not result in huge imbalances, since the groups that can use it most effectively will play against the groups that can counter it most effectively, and the groups that can't use it quite as well will be playing other groups that can't counter it quite as well.